00:00

I’ve read countless psychology books, which I actually think helped massively with marketing and understanding. It doesn’t have to be a marketing book per se. If you can understand what makes people tick and how to relate to people and communicate with people and negotiate with people, I think you can understand marketing and branding for that matter.

00:18

Hey, it’s Nate Disarro, and welcome to titans of industry, the podcast where I talk to industry leaders and innovators who are at the top of their game and leading the pack in their fields uncovering some of the best stories in today’s business landscape. In today’s episode, I sit down with Monica Millington, founder and creative director of traffic a menswear brand that is disrupting the game with wardrobe staples built for life in the tropics. She’s been featured in Esquire, variety and Singapore brides and was a top four competitor on the apprentice. Monica tells us how a girl from Texas ended up starting a business in Singapore. How participating in an incubator program and utilizing mentors were crucial to the success of her apparel brand, and why she believes that sustainable fashion should be more than a trend. We also talk about the importance of a strong brand and how psychology and storytelling go hand in hand.

01:10

Now let’s get to the episode. But before we do, our team at content Titan wants you to know that we understand the challenges business leaders and marketers are facing right now, with moving to a more virtual world. We are experts in taking human connections and turning them digital. From virtual Events and Video presentations to promotional content and advertising. We’re here to help guide you through the process of staying in front of your audience and making your life a little bit easier. People tell us all the time that they are lost and don’t know what to say or do and we exist to help your business continue to move forward, virtually. So if you’re ready to take your business and content strategy, virtual, we’re ready to help. Let’s get your business back to business.

01:57

Now, here’s my conversation with Monica Millington.

02:02

Monica, it’s such a pleasure to have this opportunity to talk to you all the way in Singapore. So I’m interested to dive into the story here. But first and foremost, just give me a kind of rough intro. Tell me who you are and what you do for a living and how we got here. Absolutely, you will thank you so much for having me, Nate. I’m thrilled to be on the podcast. And my name is Monica Millington. I’m 30 years old from Dallas, Texas born and raised. And I you know grew up there a huge texting family went to Baylor University. And by the turn of fate starcrossed, lovers, whatever you want to call it, I ended up falling in love and moving to Singapore, kind of on a whim, which I’m happy to get into a little bit later because I think it’s kind of a big part of my story. And I moved out to Singapore in 2017. And, you know, I feel like I’ve always been a bit of an entrepreneur at heart raised by a very entrepreneurial family. I ended up deciding to start up my own business about two years ago, just pre pandemic era. And I have since launched my business tropic which is a performance menswear line built for the tropical climate of Southeast Asia. And so I’ve been doing that since and basically it quit my day job. And I’ve been doing it full time and hustling and grinding, and getting to know Southeast Asia for the past four years. That’s so cool. I’ve had some connections with people in Singapore and heard nothing but amazing things about it. One of these days, I’ll have to come check it out, maybe come out for a visit and see what you guys are doing out there. But

03:43

so four years ago, you on a whim move out to Singapore. And you mentioned you’ll kind of give us a little backstory on that. So I’m curious how did this all happen?

03:53

Alright, it’s a bit of a crazy story. Bring it on here. A little bit nuts. But I do have to rewind till probably University era when I was at Baylor. And you know, I don’t know if you know much about you know, the South the Bible Belt, but again, raised by a really traditional huge Texan family. And I you know, everyone kind of was doing the same thing, right? It was University job, husband, babies house, that kind of thing. And, you know, I always thought that that’s what my future was gonna look like and I wanted to just do tick all the boxes and do everything that I was supposed to do. And so I was in a long term relationship in college and we do the the ring by spring kind of thing and end up getting married right out of university. And, and, you know, that was one of those really great lessons that I’ll always take with me but, um, long story short, you know, I think getting married very young. You are not really who you want to be yet you don’t know what you’re going to be when you grow up and you haven’t really had time to

05:00

Figure out that that life path and who you are, I didn’t know who Monica was at that point. And, and so sadly, that marriage failed. You know, it was amicable, but sad at the end of the day. And I’m kind of having this whole, like, rethink about my life, like, what am I doing? Like, I’m in, you know, I’m 25 years old, I don’t have a career path that I’m really passionate about. I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m not financially stable. And now I’m alone and single,

05:30

completely all by myself, like, how do I kind of take life back into my own hands, and start doing all the things that I want to do? You know, and I always had a very ambitious mindset, but I feel like I kind of got lost in like, a fuzzy space where I didn’t really know who I was or what I was doing. And so out of a lot of, you know, prayer and introspection and reading and kind of sitting and thinking about what I was going to do, um, I kind of decided to just follow my heart and I plan a backpacking trip to kind of tick off all of my bucket list items. I’m not to be cliche, but I had just read, Eat Pray Love by Elizabeth Gilbert, and was super inspired by it, you know, she was an entrepreneurial writer, she got divorced and took her life into her own hands and had this amazing adventure that ended up giving her this incredible life that she had always wanted. Um, and as a fun twist of fate, while I’m on this trip, and you know, exploring everything and figuring out who I am and what I want. And my childhood sweetheart reaches out to me, it slides into the Facebook DNS. And you know, I actually had met this guy, when I was 14 years old on a family holiday. And I mean, our families were there, it was like, it was super innocent. It was just a little like week long holiday romance, but we really, we never lost touch. And we were really never able to shake each other off. And we’ve always kept up over the years and done these big catch ups about you know, deep life chats, what do you want out of life? What are you doing? And he miraculously was living and working in Singapore. So he was like, Hey, what are you doing? Like, what’s up. And so we ended up facetiming. And that spurs on this, you know, crazy romance that ends up just kind of exploding into firecrackers. And he convinces me to actually move to Singapore. So from there, I make the leap. And I moved to Singapore, kind of not really knowing what’s going to happen. And you know, I think, as you make mistakes in life, and you go through trials and errors, you learn so much more about yourself every time. So I think 26 year old Monica making these decisions, versus 22 year old Monica making these decisions were two very different people, and had a very different idea of what they wanted out of life. And so after that, you know, I think just having a life partner who lifts you up and allows you to blossom and be who you want to be. That’s actually what gave me the confidence to start my own business, which had always been a long term dream of mine, since I was a little girl since I knew what the word entrepreneur meant. And I think Finally, having that confidence in someone who was empowering you and lifting you up, gave me the confidence and the power to be who I wanted to be and do what I knew I was capable of doing. So once in Singapore, I worked a corporate job for a bit. I didn’t understand the culture, it was the complete opposite side of the world from where I’d been born and raised and brought up I mean, I, you know, I didn’t understand anything about the culture. I don’t think I could have even picked out Singapore on a map before I moved out here.

08:37

Don’t tell you most, probably that way. It’s it’s a very small country. Yes, yeah. So I learned that it’s its own tiny little island in the middle of Southeast Asia. And I worked corporate for a year to get you know, the lay of the land and to really understand what I was working with. And on my year anniversary at work, I put in my notice, and I left to start up my own company, which at the end of the day, ended up being tropic and I’ve been doing development for the brand and going live with the brand for the past two years. That’s awesome. So much to unpack there. I’m sorry. I know I like to warn people before I tell the story, because it’s a lot in a short amount of time, but I love it. I mean, that’s that’s who you are. And that’s what’s brought you to where you are today. And I think there’s there’s a lot of lessons to be learned there. One of those being you, you mentioned you, you’d kind of always want to start your own business you didn’t feel empowered to do so you didn’t know that that was something you actually could do. So I’m kind of curious, I want to jump into this idea of launching a business.

09:39

First of all, where did the idea for tropic come from? And then second, how did you decide? I’m just gonna do this, I’m going to start this I’m going to make it happen. And we’re going to get this thing out into the world. Well, first off when I was starting a business, you know, I knew I always wanted to do something, but I really wanted it to succeed. I didn’t want it to just be a passion project. I needed it to be you know, financially viable.

10:00

And so I was always, I didn’t want to rush the process. So I was always looking out for gaps in the market and interesting things that could potentially be innovated upon. And so it was just a normal commute. I mean, I don’t know if you know anything about the climate in Singapore, but it is hot. It is, you know, about 100 degrees or so every single day with 90% humidity.

10:24

Right on the equator, right? Yes, like right on the equator. So it’s about as hot and humid as you can get. And with that, it’s a super, super corporate cities, state, city, slash country, whatever you want to call it, it’s both. And so you’re wearing these stuffy jackets and dresses and you know, carrying these huge heavy work bags every single day. And by the you know, you spend all this time getting ready. And by the time you show up to the office, you are a melting puddle, and you have to go and fix yourself back up again, spray little deodorant back on. And but I kept saying like, Oh, my gosh, I wish I was wearing Lululemon right now. And my husband, who’s, you know, he was wearing basically a suit every day. And he in Asia, we have a lot of custom tailors that do a lot of custom work here. And we were joking, you know, what if the tailor made your stuff out of nike dri fit material? And so we talked to the tailor, like, Can you do that? And he was like, No,

11:27

the fabric doesn’t work the same way it would be a disaster. Absolutely not. And I was just like, I’m sure it’s possible. So I started doing my research. And I saw that there’s a few brands in the states that are doing similar type of things like performance dress shirts, and and so I was like, it’s already working, why is nobody doing it out here, this is the hottest place in the world. And I started talking to people and got my idea verified and backed by a lot of people. And I decided to go into product development to see if it was actually you know, possible for me to do it. So that’s really how tropics bond. And, and getting started is another story right mentally, personally. And I think, you know, I was raised by parents with a very open mindset when it came to this. I’m very fortunate and that I was never told what to do, what university to go to, or even if I had to what job to get, you know what career path to take, or this is how you make money. I was always asked, What are you interested in? What do you like doing? What do you want to do? And whenever I had that conversation with my parents, you know, they would enable me to do any of those things. If I liked painting one summer, they put me in a painting class. If I wanted to open a I remember one summer I made skincare scrubs out of like salt and oil and stuff. And they took me to the shop to go buy all this stuff so I could sell them to my friends and neighbors. I wanted to learn how to sew. So I learned how to make clothes and shirts and handbags that would sell them to my schoolmates. And so I was always really lifted up in that area. No, I think becoming an adult, and maybe not being in the happiest relationship, I didn’t personally have a lot of confidence. I mean, growing up, I never felt like the cool kid. I never felt like the most fashionable or confident or pretty or anything like that. So it’s not like I was just the super confident I can do whatever I want kind of thing. And I really didn’t have that. And so I kind of just thought, Oh, you know, that’s not for me, you know, my little business ventures and freelancing adventures, never really panned out too much. So I kind of just thought I’m not good enough. I’m not smart enough. Um, and you know, I think, you know, being divorced, young, that was actually the big thing that really spurred me on and made me question all of those preconceived notions about myself, when I got out of that and started realizing, I am smart, I can do this, I don’t need to else to tell me if I’m capable of doing something or not. Or if I’m qualified to do something or not. I started looking into all the people that inspired me that were doing incredible things. And I looked at their path. And you know, they started from nothing as well, like they didn’t they weren’t born with this business or with this idea, or this know how they had to learn it and figure it out. And as I started looking around and having tons of friends in these corporate jobs that they hated and jobs that they were miserable in, it really hit me that the reason not everyone’s doing it is because people don’t want to do it. They don’t have enough drive or energy to keep on going and figure it out for themselves. And I thought I if I’m not the smartest person in the room, I’m I can be the most driven person in the room. And I can sure as hell like keep moving through the crap and the stuff weighing you down and the difficult times. So I knew that about myself from that. So you know, my mantra in life is why not me? Why couldn’t it be me? Why can’t I be the person doing that? Why can’t I start up this business? Why can’t I find investors? Why can’t I make the best shirt in the world and I’ve done

15:00

really driven all of my decisions going forward, even when it gets hard and I face you know, rejections and I face roadblocks. I just think that other successful people have gone through this and worse, so I can absolutely do it. I love it. You probably can’t see through the camera, but you gave me chills, you got me excited.

15:21

I love everything you just said, there’s so much good stuff in there. And you’re exactly right. Why not me? Why can I not be the person to do this to solve this problem? And, you know, when we jump back to the business conversation, why you started tropic, you saw a problem that wasn’t being solved. And you saw something where there’s an opportunity, and that opportunity took hard work, grit, innovation, thinking of doing something that other people can’t do. So starting a business of any kind, even if you know exactly what to do is difficult. There’s a lot of things to kind of figure out especially in a foreign country that maybe you don’t know all the local laws and the access and the language barrier, the dialect and accent barrier. Oh, yeah. So there’s so many things that go into that. And and I’m curious, how did you figure out? or How did you kind of go down the road of not really knowing what to do? And now all of a sudden, you’ve got a business that’s growing and doing great things?

16:21

Well, I think, you know, the ultimate test was being plopped in a country on the literal opposite side of the world from everyone you know, and love, and being told to, you know, make something happen out of nothing. And that was just like, Okay, if I can do this, I can really do anything. And for me, I’m, again, I may not be the the genius that can see all these numbers and analytics and can prove to an investor that this financial model makes sense. But I can work a room. I mean, I’m from a very chatty family, like I said, I can talk to people, I can make them feel good about themselves. And I can hold my own in a conversation. So for me, my secret weapon was networking and meeting everyone I could, I was talking to my husband at dinner outside on a patio. And this girl started playing with my puppy. It was like a dog friendly restaurant. And so we started chatting. And she ended up having a husband who is the founder of a startup here, who’s connected me to tons of people out here. And it was literally just because I decided to talk up every single person within my vicinity at all times, the fashion world can be very political and closed off and hierarchal. It’s a cool person’s club, right? Like, you never feel like the coolest person in the room in this world. If I want to speak to somebody or meet an influencer, or see if they want to be my brand ambassador, I’ve literally just slid into their DMS, you know, not heard from them, comment on their pictures, hey, we’d love to chat, check your DMS, like, you just have to really not be scared to be embarrassed, like all the time. And you know, I think people love and respect that. And I’ve made some really incredible connections just off of doing that. And so I just think you have to look at the world as an opportunity of connections. And the more people you meet, the more opportunities that are going to come your way. I was walking through this neighborhood in Singapore. And I looked up and there’s a guy wearing my clothes. And I didn’t know him. And I didn’t know who he was. And I just walked up like, Oh my gosh, how do you Where did you get these clothes? How did you find out about it. And it just, it was just a recommendation from a random friend, because I’m not spending money on online advertising right now. And I rely on word of mouth. And just seeing how that crazy world of connections ends up working out. It just really shows that you need to put your best foot forward in every single relationship that you can possibly have.

18:46

That’s absolutely true. I mean, you know, cliche phrase is your net worth is your network, and 100% or something. But lately, you know, it’s all about who you know, because that leads you from this conversation, this conversation. And ultimately, that’s all you’re trying to do anyways. But the other thing you said that I think is really important, is not being afraid to look like an idiot or to you know, send a message to somebody and never, never hear back because it’s it essentially that’s like little failures along the way are ultimately what lead to successes. And you know, not being afraid to fail not being afraid to try something is success stories that I’ve read about. They all have a mountain of failures and rejections underneath their belt. And I read somewhere it said something really interesting is that stories of success are not actually stories of success. They’re just people that are really good at moving through failures and like that’s it I had a huge rejection last week that cut me to my core and I thought the world was over. And you know, two days later I’m back on my feet. Something else great happens and then that’s something in my rearview mirror like it happens and it happens on a near daily basis and if you can keep moving past

20:00

And you’re better than nearly everybody else in the world. I’ve never met a business owner or somebody that’s done something significant. Who hasn’t failed a significant number of times? Yeah. So what really, what would you say is, as you kind of have gone through this process to this point with your business, what is one of those big challenges that you had to overcome, and ultimately, you know, now you’re better for it, or your business is better for it. and building a brand, I was just like, I want to start small and organic, and I’m going to make a great product, sell it, and then I’ll build the brand from that, you know, organically through my customer base, my people are liking, you know, which is what I’m doing. And I think it’s, it’s working for me right now. And I’ve just come out with a new line that is launching in two days. So no pressure, but I’ve got new stuff coming out. And it’s adding to this brand and adding to this product offering. Now, I entered in this, this pitch competition

20:57

a couple weeks ago, and it was this Vogue innovation thing, and I was really, really excited about it. And I was like, I’m perfect for this. I my brand fits the profile, I’ve hit all the judging criteria. And I ended up not winning it. And you know, I was, I was told I actually got some direct feedback from them. And they’re like, Listen, the look of what you’re doing is great, your products are great, you are great. But your brand lacks depth, which for me, that was like a blow to the heart. I love branding, branding. And marketing is like my bread and butter. So that was like that cut deep. And I actually like I had a bit of a cry about it. I moved around for a day and felt really sorry for myself. And my husband was just like, what are you doing? Who cares? Now you have some very, very valuable information, I’ll do something with it. And it was kind of like that reminder of like, okay, feedback is good feedback from these very important people is even better going into some very important meetings that I have coming up, I’m actually more prepared for those meetings, because I had that feedback. And I had that failure. So now I’m looking at, you know, my old pitch versus my new pitch and my new kind of brand offering. And I’m like, Oh my gosh, this is so much better. I wouldn’t at this point be embarrassed to present to them what I had before. And this meeting is even more important than the last one. So it was actually a gift that I had a little bit of a, you know, a wake up call, and I got to do some really incredible things because of that negative experience. Absolutely. I think you are explaining textbook, how businesses successful businesses kind of go through the process, you know, so you should be encouraged by these things. Because I think you’re doing it exactly right. And that’s the key. You know, sometimes you do have to, quote unquote, grieve a loss, right? Something that doesn’t go your way you need to take a day and beat yourself up, or however you cope with that and agree with that. But let’s go crush it the next day. As you continue to move forward with this brand. You’ve already gotten to do some really cool things. And I want to get into this whole apprentice experience because talk about getting feedback, I would assume that’s kind of the king of getting feedback. So how did you end up on a national television show, especially being based in Singapore? And what was that experience like? Long story short, it was crazy. It was the craziest experience and the craziest thing I’ve ever done at my own corporate job. I had met this founder of a charity here in Singapore. She’s the founder of a charity called love Mills. And it’s a program that supports children with cancer in hospitals in Singapore. And I had just left my corporate job and had not yet started up tropic. So I started volunteering for her as the marketing director part time, and that I met so many incredible people, and, you know, fundraising directors and, you know, donors and agent eyes, and just very interesting people that I never would have met otherwise. And through that experience, and one of our volunteers, her husband was working on the show, and they were still casting for the apprentice. And she came up to me, she’s like, would you be interested in going on a reality show? And I was like, um, listen, I watched the bachelor, I know how to change somebody’s image for the worst. And so I was like, tell me more, but what show was it? And she was like, it’s the apprentice. And I was like, boom, it’s a business show. I had just launched tropic. And I was like, actually, this could be perfect. I mean, I’ll take the call. And about a week later, I’m getting my casting contract and I start filming in three weeks. And it all happened very quickly. It’s known as the toughest apprentice ever. And so for those of you who have watched the previous apprentice or know anything about it, you know, it’s a business competition show. You start with about, I think 16 candidates and you get down to one and one The winner is going to be the apprentice of the big CEO. And historically

25:00

It’s been Trump and Alan sugar.

25:03

This one was chatri sityodtong, who’s the CEO and founder of one championship, which is basically like the UFC of Asia. And so I was kind of like, this is row like I’m going on it mixed martial arts business show. Like, that’s not really me, but why not? And I think doing things that make you uncomfortable are good because you grow from it. And it was the toughest apprentice ever. They actually modernized all of the challenges. So previous seasons, they’d be like, selling popsicles on the street or trying to sell some ridiculous item wholesale. I mean, just silly challenges. And this was like, Great, now create a marketing launch strategy for this Twilio technology that connects users to the customer service reps and figure out how to simplify a business. And I’m like, Okay, first of all, I don’t know what that technology is. So let me quickly learn about what I’m supposed to do. And then you’ve got to, you know, compete and come up with the best pitch which you actually have to pitch every single competition. And on top of that, they have physical challenges. So try not to be intimidated. But I did get in a cage match for jujitsu and I one, I hope there’s pictures or video of that, because I think we’ll need to absolutely I can share that with you.

26:22

I’m not the most intimidating looking, but I was, you know, I was alright, I hung in there. What a fun experience, though. So so what what was your biggest takeaway from this whole experience on the apprentice? I mean, obviously, you’re getting to do some things that most people don’t get to do, and you’re challenging yourself along the way. So what what stands out is a big takeaway. So I think one thing that people may not necessarily see from the show is because the challenges were so big, and in depth and complex, we’re going on this challenge schedule, but we’re also on a production schedule. So we’re filming and we’ve got to do interviews and reshoots, and seeing retakes and everything. So they told us, we’d be working about 16 hours a day. And the truth is, we probably worked 22 to 23, sometimes 24 hours a day. And then there’s no break in between challenges. So one week, filming was actually done in three days. So it looks like we have all this time when we’re doing it in half the time with no hours of sleep. So it sounds like I’m lying. But I’m really, really not. I’m most nights I had about two hours of sleep if it was a good night. So the whole time you’re fitting in naps during the shuttle rides. And when the cameras turn off for five minutes, you close your eyes and lay on the floor. So that being said, we’re doing these crazy challenges. We’re trying to put on a brave face for television, and we’re not sleeping, and you have to keep going because it’s a competition. And if you stop, you’re out. I mean, I think at the end, it became a stamina game, not a brains game. And so the craziest thing is I just saw what I was capable of under intense pressure and restrictions. And I really, really amaze myself, like, I look back at my journals and stuff. And I cannot believe that I did some of the things that I did rewatching the show I see some of these challenges. I’m like, What did I think that in 24 hours? how did how did I do that? And so that’s kind of the running joke now is whenever I encounter something tough, or I’m tired or don’t want to go on, I just think, Okay, get apprentice mode, you know, you can do it. And that’s what keeps me going. And I know that I don’t have an excuse, like I know what I’m capable of, which is, you know, I think kind of a once in a lifetime experience. I mean, when else are you going to put yourself on purpose through that much trauma, without any sort of risk bite arrest? And I think my there’s a book about it written by some Marine, and it’s called, I think the 40% principle. Have you ever heard of that? I don’t think I’ve heard of that one. But I’m interested. Tell me more. Yeah. So you know how Marines go through crazy training, and they’re pushed to their limits. And they’re basically made to drown once a day, and just crazy stuff. And the marine that wrote the book says, whenever you hit your limit, you’ve only actually hit 40% of your capacity, you still have 60% left. And I can tell you like, that’s 100% true. I think when you really put your head to the metal and you have the willpower, you can actually do some incredible things. We’re born that way. Like we have it in US natively. Most of us just never put ourselves in a position to where we have to understand what we’re actually capable of. And I think going through an opportunity or an experience, like you did with the apprentice, and even starting a business because when you’re talking about 22 hours a day, I’m like, well gosh, that sounds a lot like starting a business you know? Yeah, it’s not that different. Yeah. So it’s it’s awesome that you’re able to kind of go through that and and come out on the other side and be like, I mean, I’m still here. It didn’t kill me. So what else can we tackle? What else can we do? Oh, exactly that I mean, I may look dead in the final episode, but I just

30:00

They’re I showed up, I put on a dress and heels and I was at the boardroom. I love it. I love it. I want to talk a little more, you mentioned your passion for marketing and branding. You know, there, there are certainly businesses out there that can’t exist without a strong brand, that don’t have to market necessarily. But most of us if we’re not, if we don’t have some sort of brand, if we don’t have a market to to gain the attention of, then we can’t survive. So when you think about tropic and how you put this out into the world, what was your mindset of this is the brand I want to put together. And for me, the thing I’m passionate about, this is the story I want to tell, right? me my business, what we do here, we’re storytellers. And we take stories of organizations and put them out into the world in a way that connect with people in hopes that the consumer will interact with that brand or that organization. So what was it for you that said, This is the story I want to tell?

31:01

Um, well, I think it kind of goes back to maybe just how I think I’ve always been really, really curious person. I mean, I was the kind of person when my mom was running errands in the afternoon driving me around. It was Mom, how was glass made? Mom? How do they build billboards? That looks really hard? I’m like, looking at a book, Mom, how did they design this? I don’t understand how this was done. So I’ve been asking questions like that my entire life. And then as I grew up and got into, you know, media and starting a business, I really started thinking about how do people consume brands, what makes you like one thing over and over another. And that got me really into the psychology of human beings. So I’ve read countless psychology books, which I actually think helped massively with marketing and understanding, it doesn’t have to be a marketing book, per se. If you can understand what makes people tick, and how to relate to people and communicate with people and negotiate with people, I think you can understand marketing and branding, for that matter. And so I started thinking when I was building the brand, Okay, first of all, where do I position myself, you know, do a competitive analysis, start seeing the comparable brands pop up? And then dive into those brands? And see, how do I respond to this brand? How does it make me feel? Why do I like it? or Why do I not like it, and really starting to, like break it down to a science and pulling down the tangible things and I even get into color psychology, when I choose the coloring. When I first started tropic I hated the color orange, and it ended up being my brand’s color. So I think there’s so much into it. But again, what makes people tick? And what decisions do people make subconsciously when they communicate when they experience something aside from the look and feel that was its whole process, right naming and logo and colors and look and aesthetic, I drew a lot of inspiration from things that I think my target market relate to and things that they like, and men love this my target market love this, how can I draw from that and start creating products and a look and a brand that you know epitomize that. So even down to just having that core inspiration to kind of root yourself on. And then when it comes to communications, I mean, having a very strong voice is something that I’m building with the brand. And you know, within my email, communications and social media, and even my PR and marketing and you know, the publications that I get covered for me, I have a very set

33:29

way that I describe the brand and the way that I describe my products and my voice that I use when I communicate, and voice I mean, my attitude, my persona, when I communicate with them with the brand’s persona is, I make sure it’s very, very consistent. And, and one thing about marketing and psychology and stuff in communications is that people really trust consistency. It doesn’t even have to be good. But people like consistency, it’s just a sight. It’s a psychological fact about human beings. You know, if you had a friend that was always really, really sweet to you, and then for no reason she’s screaming and shouting and punching the wall, you’d be like, Whoa, I can’t trust you, I don’t understand you, why are you acting this way and you put up your guard, it’s the exact same thing with brands, people need to know that every time they interact with you or communicate with you, they’re going to get the same thing every time. So that was one of those things. You know, I said earlier, I think that I’m a classic overthinker and I like to, I like to plan and I like to think so much and be really, really tactical about how I do everything. And, and this is one of them. And this is one of the things that I think after you know some of my failures that I really want to develop even further. I want to deepen that brand and deepen that customer relationship in that. I think the community of tropic is something that I really want to develop over the next year. As I you know widen my product offering and I want people to feel like they have a friend to go to I want tropic to

35:00

They’re, they’re cool friend that they can always rely on for something fabulous to add to their wardrobe. It’s, you know, something that’s going to be comfortable and look good and fit good every single time with brand, you almost have to create a person because people are going to be communicating with it and interacting with it. Whenever I consume something, I like to think, why did that resonate with me? Why did that work for me, and I think about how I can apply that to my own practices. So I think, you know, in this digital social world, it we’re never going to have it all figured out, it’s always going to be evolving. And, you know, even Gosh, last week, Instagram changed their algorithm. And you know, Google and Facebook limited their amount of the amount of cookies that you can get. So you know, your whole advertising strategy and your whole social media marketing strategy has to adapt now. So the people who had it all figured out, have to pivot and start doing things differently. So I just like to always stay on top of it. And always be thinking about this and figuring out ways to apply it to my brand. Because the people that are going to get left behind are the people who are not treating Marketing and Communications like it’s their full time job.

36:13

We’re going to take everything he just said and play it on repeat for all of our customers all market because I love all of it. It’s so true.

36:22

Gosh, where to start? So I mean, you know,

36:26

when I think about marketing, branding, storytelling, messaging, communications, I’m right there with you. the psychology behind it is so important. And I’ve said it multiple times on the podcast that, you know, a couple of years ago, I really started diving into personality types, understanding different types of people, what makes them tick? Why does one person communicate one way and somebody else you communicate the same way with them, and they don’t take it the same way at all? And, you know, I think, personality tests By the way, he’s speaking my love language, right? So okay, well, let’s dive into that. So so what what are your tests? What do you like? What’s your favorite stuff to kind of dig into? Okay, do you know what you are for Myers Briggs? So that’s the one that I haven’t retested in a while I need to, I kind of really started to dig into the enneagram, a couple years ago, I am an ENFP. I think I’m the most fun one. But you know, it’s up for debate. I’m not biased or anything, but I think it does something like it’s like thinking, feeling judging, perceiving extraversion, introversion, intuition, and something else. So it basically takes these four core traits, and it gives you one end of the spectrum versus another. And then it shows you where you are on those four spectrums. So there’s 16 personality types in all, and so mine is a it’s called a campaigner. So it’s very, like very extroverted, very, like axon feelings. Very, very motivated and driven, very more creative than analytical, like, can’t be fussed with numbers and details, likes to focus more on big picture stuff and big projects. So when I read it, I’m like, who wrote this about me?

38:12

That’s what I love about personality tests is when you find your thing, you start to realize like, that’s somebody studied my life and put it down in this test, but then you start to realize, well, how many other people does this connect to? And we all you know, there’s only so many versions of humankind, it seems like yeah, and even though we’re all unique and different in our own ways, we there’s sort of this finite amount of ways we communicate and connect to each other. And, and understanding that makes it Okay, that some people you’re not as compatible with and other people you feel like you’ve known forever, and you just said hello to them for the first time. You’ve inspired me to go back and take the Myers Briggs again, because I’m really interested now to know

38:57

kind of where I fit into that scale. But bringing that back to the business side, the marketing side, the branding side, does your audience kind of fit one persona? Or do you have to market and create messaging for different types of people?

39:11

Yeah, so this is one of the projects I’m working on right now. Because I’ve initially tailored it towards one of my personalities, and which is a large part of my market. It’s, I haven’t done like an enneagram test for that’s actually a great idea to apply that to my customer personas. But my my guy is fashionable, but Fast, Free, and prefers simplicity because he’s so busy. And so that’s that’s one type of personality, but I’m also realizing I’ve got a different kind that’s younger and more fashionable, and has time to think about fashion. And I also have I’ve been realizing since I’ve launched I have a huge female gifting market who are super motivated by shopping for the man of the house. So I’m working on formulating these, you know these different communication styles.

40:00

towards each of them. So I want to ask you this, because I feel like you probably have a lot of answers. But if there’s something that stands out to you, what’s something you wish you knew when you started your business that you have subsequently found out? that’s helped you along the way?

40:17

I think that’s a really great question. Um, I think this sounds so simple, but it’s, you don’t have to do it yourself. Yes, I may run a business on my own. And I may have this idea and be, you know, a solo founder. But what I realized, especially through like, the mentors that I’ve been able to gain over the past year, is, you know, help is there as much as you ask for it. And I, I tend to get into, you know, my planning headspace and I can get locked, especially in a COVID world where you’re not in an office, and you’re not out events, and you know, work meetings and stuff like that, being behind a computer and home office all day, it’s very easy to just think I have to figure this out myself, I’ve just realized that, you know, the more that I do it, the more that I get out of it, and then it kind of starts motivating me of Oh, that was so helpful. When I spoke to that person, I’m gonna ask this person for help. And as you get into the startup business world, and the entrepreneurial life, people are so willing to help other people, you know, for free, you know, within parameters, of course, but I mean, my mentors are all my mentors, literally out of the goodwill of their hearts. And it’s just, it’s a mutual relationship, like, I don’t have to sit there for 30 minutes on FaceTime, once a month being like, thank you for your time, I’ll be really quick, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. It’s the type of people that I can shoot a message to, and they send me a message back and says, email me that I’ll email it to my friends, we’ll give you your feedback. And so in when people do the same to me, I don’t think twice about helping them like I’m happy to help, you know, provide my expertise where I can and make someone else’s journey a little bit easier, because I remember how important it was when, you know, I was just starting out, and how important it is to me today. And so, you know, almost on the karma spectrum, like, you get what you give. And, you know, I think also with the maybe the insecurity of starting a business and not knowing what you’re doing every step of the way, you kind of think I’ve got to do this, I’ve got to figure this out on my own. When really, there, there’s a whole wide network of people that are willing to help you if you’re willing to put in the time into building those relationships. So true. So true. So you mentioned multiple times mentors, in your answer there in our world, we call those people Titans. So who are your Titans? Who are the people that kind of they’re just outside of your world, but you look at them and you say that’s a person I want to be like, they’ve done these things, I can do those things. Like I said, when I was you know, building the brand, I had a few brands that I would look at and obsess over and pour over everything that they were doing and break it down like tactic by tactic. I do the same thing with entrepreneurs and aspirational people. And I’d say maybe the first two stories that I heard about, you know, founders and entrepreneurs that really made me think, Hey, I could do this too. And was Sara Blakely and Eileen Fisher. And you know, Eileen Fisher was kind of a she was single and didn’t really have anything that she was doing. She just really wanted to make clothes. She liked making clothes for herself. And someone said, you should try selling this at markets. And she literally would like sit on her sewing machine at home. No business no how No, pre like this huge startup techie world that we live in. And she just made clothes that she liked, sold them at the market, got more demand and then ended up being this like fashion Empire and she still owns 100% of her business and she grew 100% organically. And that’s amazing to me.

43:52

Sara Blakely, you know, she was basically just poor had no money and just basically had kind of an idea of Hey, my might be nice to use these tights, something to get rid of my panty lines. And now she’s you know, on the Forbes list, and were the most successful female entrepreneurs in the world. And she’s done an insane amount in such a short amount of time. And for me, what’s so inspiring about Sara Blakely is that I think she’s one of those founders that just really knows how to keep moving forward. And she’s very willing to put herself out there and take the next step, even like after failures and roadblocks and not understanding or knowing how to do something, or maybe being scared of expanding or, you know, working with investors or whatever. She’s, she’s an incredible person, but it’s not like she was this incredible prodigy. She just did all this by you know, having the drive and determination to do it. And so I think that there they were my first few, I think, inspiration stories for sure. And then locally here in Singapore. One person has been really incredible.

45:00

To me, I entered in this startup incubator program during lockdown last year, and I got in withdrawal back. And it was basically a program that helps set your business up for success in fashion in Singapore, you learned everything from sustainable manufacturing to supply our resources, and, you know, understanding how to pitch to investors and basic accounting for solo business owners, I mean, everything under the sun, we learned how to do and we It was a three to four to four month program. And we got paired with a different mentor every time and you know, the cohort had asked these people to come on and mentor for short sessions for each of these groups. And there was a couple people that really stuck out to me who were very relevant for what I was doing, Sonia proco bag, she is an LVMH, certified luxury fashion professor from, you know, taught in France and everything like that, and now lives here in Singapore. And she is one of those people that really just had a heart, I think, for young brands that are wanting to do big things. And so we connected and we met through this program with this structure where I only had, I think, 330 minute sessions with her and a few email sessions with her. So they were like, do not take advantage of your mentors time. Be very, very careful about this. And so I you know, use her for everything that I could and afterwards, I just really liked her and she was so helpful. And I was like I’m staying on her radar. So I’d email her afterwards and tell her to follow me on Instagram, asked her what she thought of my latest brand pose, catch her on email, share with her my new product line or my new pitch deck and just say like, Hey, what do you think? And it meant, you know, finding a mentor can be a bit like dating, so you don’t want to overstep it. You don’t want to move too quickly in the beginning, but I really wanted to stay on her radar. And she was, you know, she gave me stuff back. And so I bit every time she came back to me and made sure to keep that relationship rolling. And now she’s someone that has been hugely helpful, looks over all of my pitches for me, gives me feedback on all of my products. And she’s now a customer and she buys stuff for her husband from me, not out of pity. She said

47:16

it was very important. You want that good, honest customer that. Yeah, because it’s there.

47:23

I think incubators are so great. We’ve had a guest on the podcast, his name’s Wayne Miller. He’s one of those guys that’s done a little bit of everything. And he’s failed at some things. He’s been incredibly successful at some things. And he runs this incubator for people in the financial tech world. So if you have an app that that handles banking, and you know, all those kinds of things, this incubators specifically designed for those types of people. And I think it’s so important that you find somebody that’s been there, find somebody that’s, that’s failed a lot more than you have. And they can at least keep you from making big catastrophic failures, even though there’s some things you still have to figure it out on your own. So I think that’s really great. Thanks for sharing that story. Always surround yourself with people smarter than you. That’s the best advice that I could give never be the smartest person in the room. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you know, they say you’re the average of the five people you’re around the most. And I definitely don’t want to be the the, quote unquote smartest person in the room ever. So another thing we talked about a lot. And and I’m curious, because you talk about the sustainability of your business. And I want to get into that a little bit. But one of the things we’ve talked about is how do we do business better, right? So as we think about, you know, we’ve we’ve gone through this horrific pandemic, and it’s caused us to change and challenge the way we’ve done business in the past. So for you, what does that mean? Do do business better? What does that mean to you? And then how do you feel like you are trying to do business better?

48:52

I think the pandemic was great for the world, and that people became more aware of their consuming, right, whether it’s sustainability or just quality products, or whatever, you’re stuck at home all day long. Now, all these huge brands are being upturned for unethical business practices. And you’re sitting in the same clothes every day. So you very quickly realize like how negative fast fashion actually is on the world. And you kind of feel like it’s a sometimes it’s a little bit of a highway robbery. And then a very fast paced world where you’re always shopping and always moving through your wardrobe. It’s one thing but when you’re stuck at home with it, and you spend, let’s just say $150 on a dress and it comes in and it’s not no different from something you would get it forever 21 you’re like, hold up, this is not cool. And you you’re completely turned off by those brands and you won’t purchase from them again. So at least people are more aware now. And as I was, you know, starting up tropic in this timeframe, and in this era, I would say like Actually, I didn’t really have a big understanding of sustainability before I moved out to Singapore that really wasn’t on my radar as it probably wasn’t for

50:00

A lot of people, and then coming out here and getting to you travel the world, Singapore, such a great travel hub, and visit these, the most beautiful places in the world and gorgeous beaches and scuba diving and the most beautiful reefs. And you start seeing how poorly we’re actually taking care of the world and these gorgeous destinations littered in plastic and garbage. And you’re kind of like, why are we consuming like this, this is disgusting. And you can actually see the tangible results of what we’re doing. So getting into fashion and started realizing how much fashion is contributing to pollution and the amount of waste that we are all putting in by contributing to fast fashion, it was really shocking. And I was like, I cannot consciously build up a business that has my thumbprint on it that contributes to any of this or does business this way. So you know, it takes extra effort, there’s a reason that people are not doing it, there’s a reason big brands are not doing it, because it’s expensive, and it’s time consuming. So even designing my products, I have to design them better my first shirt took a year to make, because I kept sending it back to the manufacturer saying, This isn’t good quality, like I can’t charge this amount for this shirt. If you’re not, you know, making it this way. And this, you know, if you don’t catch it in the beginning, when you know it’s sampling and back and forth and time and money, then it’s never going to get that way. And so I wanted to start off really strong with a quality product that would last that would have a longer lifespan than all the other garments in your closet, as well as being sourced from factories who are practicing responsible manufacturing, who are paying their workers, you know, a living wage and safe working conditions. And back in the day, I would have traveled to my factories to see them. But now you know, I have been able to FaceTime them and see them and meet them and see the space and understand where my clothes are being made. So that I can be proud to share that part of it with the world and have that type of transparency with tropic and, and then I think you know, even down to the packaging, I mean all of us during lockdown, you’re ordering everything to your door and you’re getting packages every single day and you start seeing the boxes pile up. And you’re just like this is this is too much. And I think pre COVID we, we there’s a huge unboxing culture. And you know, it’s super exciting to get a big fancy box with all this gorgeous packaging and tissue paper and unbox within another box. And now it’s kind of like oh, like brands are being called out for wasting that much on something that’s disposable. And I mean, I love that. And so when I started even designing the packaging, everything had to be thought out, I didn’t want to have poly bags in my packaging. So I have reusable laundry bags that also help prolong the life of the garment. I ship instead of pretty cardboard boxes, I actually ship in biodegradable mailers. So when people get their stuff, I mean even down to the the tags, and the way that the hang tags are fastened down and the way that the the buttons are made, everything has to be, you know, responsible because it starts at the core. And as I grow and scale, if I don’t have that foundation, the brand won’t be that way. I love it. That’s so cool. And so much thought goes into that and you’re right, it takes so much more work to be that way. And and you hope the consumer just gets the product and loves it and they don’t think about all the work all the effort, all the things that you’ve done, to get there. But but it makes such a difference. And it’s inspiring, you know, we hope other brands see that and follow suit. You know, in our business, we have a mantra that we say be easy to do business with. And that sounds so simple. And it sounds so basic. But when you think about it, how many business interactions do you have that it’s just complicated. There’s so many steps to order, there’s so many contracts you have to go through, there’s so many different things you have to do. And it makes a business transaction difficult. And I think most businesses are difficult to work with. I think that the top level people are the ones that have figured out that exactly that that it needs to be easy to do business with. Yeah. And so that’s that’s all we do. What what that really means though, is that it’s harder for us, you know, it’s more work effort. And but we want our clients to have the easiest interaction with us they possibly can because, you know, the second that we make it difficult on him, they start to consider that relationship, well is somebody else going to be easier if somebody else is gonna make my life a little bit simpler. And so that’s kind of our whole mantra going into every customer interaction that we have, where are you going? What’s next? Where’s the the next big thing for you? I’m sure you’ve got lots of plans and ideas. And so my big exciting thing is I have a new loungewear line coming out

54:36

on what’s today on the 16th of July. So that will be live shortly here. And I’m really excited about that. That was a COVID revelation, and that is people spending more time at home and needing something nicer to lay around in so we create a sophisticated loungewear line so it’s matching sets for men. I think it’s really, really fun. The people that have already gotten

55:00

The pre sale items are loving it. So I’m really excited about that. But um, I don’t want to speak too soon. But I think some exciting upgrades to the brand are going to be happening soon. And I have a really exciting vision for what the next product line is going to look like as we fill out and make it more robust. And so I think big things on the horizon for tropic and and Yeah, I definitely give it a follow if you’re not already I’m sure you’re not because you’re in Little Rock. But uh, definitely keep an eye on it. Because eventually I do want to come to the states and set up a market there because I think there’s a lot of use for our products out there. Absolutely. I mean, yeah, being in the southern states, and it’s summertime, I think can I was going to ask Where can I get this cuz I’m ready for it. But no, I think I think it’s such a great product line. I think that everything you’re doing is amazing. So I want to jump into just what we call some quick hit questions get a little bit more behind the person who is Monica. So what are you a reader? What’s the best book or the latest book you’ve read? Oh, best book in the world. Everyone in the world should read it. And is never split the difference by Chris Voss. It is a negotiation tactic book from a FBI hostage negotiator. And I have tried it in business, I’ve tried it my relationship and it works every time.

56:21

And Chris Voss for people that don’t know who he is, or haven’t heard of him.

56:27

The guy’s brilliant. I mean, the things he talks about the way he talks about negotiation, breaks it down, makes it simple, and any. I love how he talks about the fact that every time you enter into a conversation with somebody, it’s a negotiation. And you know, he’s fantastic. And I just love listening to him talk. He’s got that, you know?

56:49

Yeah, the tone matches the voice 100%.

56:55

Okay, what is the daily routine that you kind of have to do every day?

57:00

Okay, for me, I have to have my morning to myself from my mind to relax. Like I said earlier, I’m a huge night owl, my creative brain works so much better in the evening, when it’s awake and alert for the day. So my mornings are my sanctuary. So I know a lot of entrepreneurs will say get out of bed, get your day started. For me, I’m like, no lay in bed, let your mind wander, be serene, have the peace, have your time with the coffee on the patio journal for a little bit, read a book for five minutes, anything to just wake you up and get you excited for the day. You know, for me, I’m not an early riser. And I don’t get excited when my alarm goes off early. And I start the day miserable. Because as an entrepreneur, I have to stay self motivated 100% of the time. And if I start the day on the wrong foot, then that’s it. I don’t have an office of people, you know, you know, getting me into gear. So my morning is sacred. And then I go through my admin in the morning, once I’ve woken up and had my coffee when I’m like more in a robotic mode. And I can hammer through the emails and hammer through the admin jobs and just get stuff off my to do list. And then I leave the afternoon for the real creative space in the creative strategic thinking. And honestly, like if I if I start hitting that lol, I always allow myself to take 30 minutes or even an hour and go for a walk, go for a run, go down to the pool, play with the puppy for a little bit, read a book, turn on the TV, whatever helps me unwind for a short period of time so that I can have that refresh to tackle the second half of my afternoon. And as an entrepreneur, we have some very, very long days. And like right now it’s 11:15pm. And I still probably have another two hours of work. And so it is what it is. And you have to do what you got to do whatever works for you to keep you going and keep you motivated and happy with what you’re doing. So true. And thank you for taking this time to chat with me so cool. This stuff, what is the best piece of advice you’ve either given or received? Um, just keep moving. And just do it. I mean, I’m originally by Nike. I know I did not coined that term. Um, but literally, whenever I have people come up to me, or I’m speaking to friends from home, and they’re like, Wow, that’s so amazing. How did you start this company? It’s so inspiring. Like, it’s not, I just did my idea. That is all I’m doing every day is I’m doing my idea. I’m not. I’m not a prodigy. I’m not a genius. I’m not the smartest person in the room. I literally just get up and I do it and I move forward and it’s hard. Not every day is a treat. You have those days where you feel really, really, really low, or nothing’s happening or a deal falls through and you don’t get what you thought you’re going to get. But all you have to do is take the first step because if you haven’t stepped anywhere, you’re not going anywhere. That’s right, absolutely. Have you heard of Simon Sinek? Are you familiar with him? Yes, yeah. He has a book called start with y. And as you were talking earlier, you mentioned the whole y aspect of it.

1:00:00

And when you were a kid, you were asking your mom all these questions. But I think that’s kind of the genesis of so many businesses and ideas and you start with why, but then to your point right now, then you just don’t stop. You know, you keep going, you keep moving forward one day at a time. And that’s how you build a successful business. I love that. Exactly. So obviously, COVID and the pandemic is caused a lot of changes in people’s daily routines and habits. So do you have any newly formed habits that have been created? Because you’ve been stuck inside or can’t travel like you used to?

1:00:36

Yes, so this is gonna sound annoying, but you know, we used to be so busy traveling, and especially going home to see our families in the UK in the US. We didn’t really have a lot of time for routine here in Singapore, we were always on the move, and always in a plane. I think something that’s been really, really valuable to me, and my husband and my friends, is setting aside leisure time. And I mean, it’s very easy to sit here and work till midnight every single day. But I think making sure that Guess what, Tuesday night is Girls Night, that is when you get out of the house, and you go see your friends, and you talk about the Bachelor. And you know, making sure that you know, on Friday nights, I’m out with my husband, and he gets out of his desk as well. And we get out of the house, we don’t eat at home, we’ll go have dinner at a restaurant and leave our phones at home. And so I think really, I mean, you only get one life at the end of the day. And yes, my work is super important to me. And it’s you know, my life’s passion, but at the same time, the relationships are always the most important and who you surround yourself with. And for me, you know, you heard a little bit about my love story, the beginning and I always want to make sure that I’m prioritizing the things and the people that mean the most to me. And you know, that’s my husband and my family. So, you know, as a rule, especially not going home, either. I always pick up a FaceTime from my mom, dad or sister or brothers. I’m always picking up the phone to my family no matter what, because I think life’s just too short. And the distance is just too far. Wow, I love that.

1:02:08

All right, what’s the best thing you’ve bought in the last year for under $100?

1:02:13

Oh, that’s a good one. Um,

1:02:18

this is gonna sound really stupid. But my chair

1:02:22

working from home for like, 13 hours a day, my whole body. I mean, I’m now 30 My whole body started giving up on me. It was like, hey, you’re not in your 20s anymore. You’re getting older, by some back support. Sit properly. So I got my whole desk set up with like, all my modular things so that my screens are all at the right height. And my chair now has back support, and I don’t feel like I’m dying every single day. Listen, and I got it for 60 bucks. You’re young enough. You’ve got a ways to go before you really have much to worry about in that regard. But that’s, that’s a very good fine, so congratulations on a great chair. Yeah. All right. Music. Do you have any favorite music or artists? Oh, yes. It’s embarrassing.

1:03:09

Okay, my guilty pleasure. You may not get this from looking at me. But you know, I was in high school in the 2000s. So my jam is to 1000s punk rock music that just brings me joy. I love it. Yeah, I mean, you can’t not be in a positive mood when that stuff comes on. Yeah, exactly. That’s so funny. Right your works these days? Yeah.

1:03:33

Favorite food? Do you have a favorite restaurant? Do you have a favorite type of food? Do you like to cook I love to cook so always cook a really nice meal from scratch unless we’re eating out. Um, maybe maybe the Texans will get this I don’t really know where this restaurant is. But I have a guilty pleasure. That is like my go to it is my biggest craving I ever ever have in being in Singapore. We don’t have it here. So I my first stop on the airport on the way home to Dallas. is we stopped at schlocky is do you have schlocky there

1:04:05

is a sandwich and the whole world. My dad cracks me up because anytime we would go somewhere, he he’d be like, well, let’s just grab lunch and I’d be like, Alright, fine. Where do you want to go? He’d be like, Well, how about schlocky? And it was every time it was like this matter of factly like, Well, what about this as though he wouldn’t say it every time? You know? Yeah, yes, I’ve had plenty of schlocky turkey sandwiches, and

1:04:32

I had a really bad craving recently. So I went so far as to look up a copycat recipe, make the sourdough bun from scratch and do it with some like disgruntled schlocky employee that posted the full recipe online. And I copied everything and it is like it’s a pretty close fit it actually it satisfied my craving enough to hold me over until I get back home.

1:04:56

Love it. I love it. Oh my gosh, I’m so right now.

1:05:00

tropic is not available in the US correct? It is available. And if you spend I know it’s all based in Singapore dollars on the website, but you can convert it. Okay. And

1:05:12

if you spend $200 or more you get free shipping to the US so you can buy in the US. We’re just not based there. Okay, well, I am going to get online here in about five minutes. And please, at least $200 worth of product but yeah, exactly.

1:05:31

So yeah, cuz I want everybody to be able to experience the brand, the product, the quality, the sustainability, everything that you’ve talked about. It just sounds like such an amazing brand. So I’m just so thankful that you took the time to have this conversation and talk through your journey to get to this point and wish you all the success in the world next time you’re in the States. Give me a call. I actually am from Dallas to I grew up in Plano.

1:05:58

So not not too far away, but practically neighbors. And I’ll absolutely look you up. Well, we’ll talk more. And But seriously, thank you so much for having me today. It was such a pleasure to talk to you. And I hope that you know the people listening can find some sort of inspiration or advice from all of this from my journey. And if you’re listening, you’re more than welcome to reach out to me on Instagram at Monica Millington. And I’m happy to engage with you and chat with you and talk all things startups. Awesome. Thanks so much, Monica. Thank you, Nate.

1:06:35

If you like this episode of titans of industry, head to content Titan dot CEO slash podcast for more episodes or subscribe on your favorite podcasting app. And if you know of an industry Titan that’s doing amazing things. Let us know on social media or through our website so we can tell their story. Thanks for listening

00:00

And then I woke up, and all of the pain medicine that was keeping my pain down after the surgery was gone out of my system. And I for the first time in my life experienced 10 out of 10 mind numbing, all consuming pain. And in that moment, I probably would have done anything sold anything given anything for that to end, because I couldn’t even consider anything else going on in the world.

00:28

Hey, it’s Nate Disarro and welcome to titans of industry, the podcast where I talk to industry leaders and innovators who are at the top of their game and leading the pack in their fields uncovering some of the best stories in today’s business landscape. In today’s episode, I sit down with Dr. Jonathan Gauri, the director of interventional pain management at ua Ms. Dr. Gorrie has a passion for bettering the quality of life for as many people as possible when not seeing patients. Jonathan also teaches at the Medical School equipping the next generation of doctors to find solutions to life’s most painful problems. In our conversation, Jonathan tells the story of how early personal experiences with sports and mouth surgery led him to pursue anesthesiology and pain management. He describes how the lessons he learned on the football field still permeate his leadership style today, and how he’s a champion for diversity and inclusion. These are the key elements of his mission to bring health care to people that have been historically underserved. Jonathan is also an accomplished speaker traveling nationally to speak about innovative breakthroughs in pain management.

01:34

Now let’s get to the episode.

01:37

But before we do, our team at content Titan wants you to know that we understand the challenges business leaders and marketers are facing right now, with moving to a more virtual world. We are experts in taking human connections and turning them digital. From virtual Events and Video presentations to promotional content and advertising. We’re here to help guide you through the process of staying in front of your audience and making your life a little bit easier. People tell us all the time that they are lost and don’t know what to say or do and we exist to help your business continue to move forward, virtually. So if you’re ready to take your business and content strategy virtual, we’re ready to help. Let’s get your business back to business.

02:22

Now, here’s my conversation with Dr. Jonathan, Gauri.

02:26

Jonathan, we’ve known each other for a little while. And I appreciate you taking the time to jump on the show here and tell us all things pain management. I don’t know what the statistic is, maybe you do. But how many people are affected with pain, chronic pain every year. First of all, thanks for having me. I’m a fan of the podcast. And I’m glad to join the group of people who have graced the show. So thank you, chronic pain is is challenging. And it’s you know, the best way to start is that pain is really a part of life. And it’s a necessary part of life. It’s our messenger system from our body to our brain, that something’s wrong. You know, if we sit uncomfortably, we start to experience pain to tell us to move. And so we get back to statistics at start with that everyone experiences pain, probably at some point in every single day.

03:24

Chronic Pain is really when that pain becomes dysfunctional.

03:30

And our body sends pain signals past the amount of time that it takes for us to either fix the problem or heal. And the statistics vary, but I think you can safely say that a third of people are in the country are experiencing some sort of chronic pain every single day. And I would even include myself in that as I’m starting to get older. You know, I have a little bit of back pain here and there that comes in. I call I call my back pain Charlie and Charlie comes to visit me you know, probably, you know a couple times a week well I can completely empathize with that I’m the same way I think when I hit probably around the age of 3031 I started to notice these little things that just I had never noticed before pain was just discomfort and then I didn’t do anything about it gradually kind of get a little more uncomfortable and then you start not sleeping as well and then you know I would assume like said a third of the population experiences something like that. At what point did you decide this is the field I want to go into this is what I’m going to do is help people manage their pain. How did you get to where you’re at? Yeah, there’s there’s a long and a short I’m going to go with the long end Feel free to cut me off if I get a little long winded as they used to say

04:49

you know I I played a lot of sports growing up and I played football in high school and wanted to play college football but unfortunately you

05:00

Know, the maker decided I wasn’t going to be tall enough to be an NFL defensive then, even though I’m pretty sure I had the talent, I’m just gonna throw that out there.

05:09

But I decided I wanted to be around sports and and I was a smart kid I was a nerd. And so how can I be around an NFL team without being an NFL athlete, I watched the movies and any given Sunday, there was a doc around the team given he was a villain, so I didn’t want to be like him. But I was like, I can be a doctor. And so that made me decide that I wanted to go to medical school. So you know, I, I wish I could say that, you know, from the age of 10. I had a physician mentor that I followed, but honestly, it was my ego and wanting to be around sports.

05:46

When I got to medical school, I tried all the different types of medicine. And I realized I didn’t love surgery, most of the docs around sports orthopedic surgeons, but I enjoyed what I miss most about sports was that game time feeling of it being fourth in one, and you having to make a play to win the game. And I experience that most with anesthesia. So ended up being an anesthesiologist because anesthesiologist are professionals at saving lives in kind of very dire situations. I’m

06:27

trained as an anesthesiologist. And what I realized, and I had a specific moment when my path changed, and it was honestly, I had a surgery.

06:38

I had my wisdom teeth cut out because they were impacted. And the surgery went well. And I was in the recovery room. And I was having severe pain. And the nurse came over and gave me some fentanyl, which been those kind of in the news as a drug of abuse, but it’s commonly used during surgery. And after about 30 seconds after getting that medicine, I don’t remember anything. So I went what we call APNIC. So I basically overdosed, stop breathing was completely out, they called a code, as we say in medicine. And I was given Naloxone or Narcan, which is kind of known in the news as the reversal agent for pain medicine.

07:27

And then I woke up, and all of the pain medicine that was keeping my pain down after the surgery was gone out of my system. And I for the first time in my life experienced 10, out of 10, mind numbing, all consuming pain.

07:43

And in that moment, I probably would have done anything sold anything given anything for that to end. Because I couldn’t even consider anything else going on in the world. All I could think about was the pain going on in my mouth. And I was fortunate enough that, you know, 30 minutes later that were off, and they were able to give me medicine and my pain was treated. As I continued my career, I realized two things. And that’s one that there are people all over this country that experienced that level of level of pain every moment of their life. And that to me was terrifying. And I wanted to help them. So that was the first thing. The second thing I realized, and this probably really is the reason for my two major interests is that there are a lot of people who look like me,

08:39

due to access reasons, implicit bias social reasons, who don’t have access to high quality health care to get their pain treated.

08:50

And I wanted to help them. And so after finishing my anesthesia, anesthesiology residency, I did an extra year of training at Emory in Atlanta to really focus in on those two things. How can I help people who have severe complex chronic pain? And also how can I help underrepresented minority groups who don’t have the same level of representation in medicine? And then I was recruited here to back home to Little Rock at you Ms to start my practice. Love it. Well, thanks for sharing that whole the whole journey because it does give a lot of context. I think it’s really fascinating to know that that you’ve sort of been on the patient side so you get it, you know, what a 10 out of 10 feels like you understand what you’re helping and, you know, with with the era of COVID Now, we know that that that’s caused a lot of changes and challenges for people and especially like you mentioned the minority segment of the population. There’s been a lot of conversation about the the lack of care and the lack of resources to

10:00

really support those that are at times in the most need. So how is that affected? what you guys are doing now in pain management? Has there been any new discoveries that the virus has has added to your plate? Or is that not really anything that you have to worry about? Yeah, that’s, that’s an outstanding question, as you alluded to COVID, has really changed how all of us have have done business. Over the past year and a half, I would say it’s affected me and my field really in two ways. Or I would say three ways. The first is that medicine is a very hands on field.

10:44

You know, traditionally, touch is a big part of medicine. And I made sure that, you know, I examined every patient, I’m a pretty old school doc. And then we have all these new imaging modalities and MRIs and x rays and all that stuff. But at the end of the day, there’s no substitute for someone who has back pain, touching their back, while they’re in certain positions to understand what’s going on. During COVID. I couldn’t do that, especially at the beginning of the pandemic. And so medicine really transitioned to a telemedicine format. And so for probably two or three months, I saw 100% of my patients on a video screen.

11:27

And that was a huge change. For me, it’s it’s, it also challenged my creation of the patient physician relationship,

11:39

not looking someone in the eye, not shaking their hand, and being able to gain trust and buy in because I’m creating plans for people to really try to transform their quality of life, and not having them present to really smile at the right time, or help kind of build that relationship.

12:02

It’s challenging. Also, a lot of the things that I do, kind of offering opioid sparing modalities of pain, involve injections, implants, things like that, that were more challenging to do. So we had to kind of quickly adapt our hospital protocols to be able to allow patients to come and safely

12:28

you know, having patients sit in their car until we’re ready for their appointment, spacing out our recovery room, making sure that we have strong COVID protocols. And so that was a big part of it. The second thing is this long haul or phenomenon, that COVID while it is a viral disease that’s very dangerous in the short term in the first month of contracting it, people are having long term effects. And

12:59

a lot of our field of pain management is really about improving quality of life, for people who have been discarded by the medical system.

13:10

When medicine says, you have this problem, you know, patients come to the doctor because they’re in pain, they don’t come to the doctor because they have a disease. They don’t know what their diseases. If doctors say, Well, I can’t fix the reason you came, you go see a pain management doctor. And so a lot of these patients are starting to come into our practice, because medicine doesn’t know what to do with them. And that’s kind of I enjoyed that challenge. But it has really caused me to have to think outside the box, because I don’t have a manual for how to treat these patients. No one does. But I’m the last stop, you know, the buck stops here. I can’t, there’s no one for me to send them to. And then I would say the third thing is, I’m really engaged in a lot of clinical research, and a lot of kind of conference networking around the country to move our field forward. And that really hit a halt during COVID. And so figuring out how to educate our physicians of tomorrow, and still collaborate to make sure that our advances in technology don’t halt for a year. And you know, using mediums such as this using using zoom and using teleconferences has been a big help with that. So we’ve talked a little bit about your, your travels, your your speaking around the country, your involvement, and like you just mentioned.

14:42

And of course you talk as though someone who’s been doing this for 30 years, for somebody who’s been in the field for a long time because you’re educating other physicians, you’re, you’re leading the field, but you’re under 40 years old and you’re doing things that

15:00

Most people probably aren’t doing a lot of people enter the workforce, and they find their niche. And they coast. They just kind of go through the day to day and make a living. And that’s nothing wrong with that. But you have a passion, you have a desire to push the industry forward to educate people to do things in a way that aren’t being done.

15:19

What what’s your motivation and drive? Why are you maybe different than the next pain management? Doctor?

15:27

I think that’s a, that’s a great question.

15:30

And requires a lot of introspection. You know, I think that I went into medicine or my love of medicine is, and I’ve used this buzzword a few times is really about changing quality of life for patients. And what I realized about two years into my career is, you know, I can go to work, and I can be in a clinic. And I can see 15 to 20 patients in a day, and have an amazing impact. And those 15 to 20. Patients are gracious, they’re thankful. They’re appreciative of what I did, for them, getting people back to work getting, you know, grandparents back playing with their grandkids is great. But there is there are ways that physicians can have much larger impacts. And when I look at our state, which is number two, or n has been for the past four or five years number two and opioid prescribing.

16:42

And when I look at a rural state that doesn’t have access to cutting edge, high quality pain care, in Magee Arkansas, Alma, Arkansas in the four corners of our state, or even honestly, in Little Rock, before we started building our clinic, compared to the places I trained, Manhattan, Atlanta, where you could throw a rock and hit someone who’s a well trained, fellowship trained pain physician,

17:14

I quickly realized that I can if I focus on education, and policy, and recruitment and program building here in Arkansas, if I bring multi national research trials to Little Rock, if I bring in physician partners from four corners of the United States, if I open education programs for doctors in rural Arkansas, that I’m not just having an impact on 20 patients a day, I’m having an impact on 1000s of patients, because the entire of culture around quality of life care is going to change. And once I realized that it was a no brainer. And so I still see patients, I still, you know, I’m wearing scrubs right now, and then no one can see me. But you know, this afternoon, I’m going to do some procedures on patients to help with chronic pain. But I only see patients about 50% of the time. And the rest of my time is devoted to really educating our state, educating the physicians of tomorrow, educating the physicians of today and working on policy for you IMS and for for the state and bringing in high quality research and partnering with other physicians around the world to advance pain care, and make sure that we have access to that right here at home.

18:45

It’s incredible.

18:47

You mentioned that a lot of what you do, it’s sort of the the the buck stops here, there is no other option for your patients.

18:56

And that at times, you’ve got to figure it out. There is no manual, there’s no solution. I would assume at some points, there’s there’s times in your career in your practice that those exercises those those results and in not being what you want them to be. I think anybody who’s successful has always experienced some level of failure. Are there any specifics that come to mind when it comes to like something you tried that didn’t work, but that ultimately led to better outcomes down the road? Like what have you failed at that ultimately helped helped you succeed? Yeah, I can I can talk more generally, and then I’ll get into a specific, specific example. It’s so so most of the patients that we see, as I’ve said medicines already failed them. A lot of times other physicians will question the research in our field, not realizing that, that the 10% of patients that you couldn’t fix are 100% of our patients. So that leaves us in a little bit of a lurch because

20:00

We are trying therapies on folks who have who are the exception to the rule for every other medical therapy.

20:11

And we don’t always, we don’t always do great, we don’t always make the change we desire. And some of my most challenging conversations is to sit down with someone and say,

20:25

I don’t think that we can make a real dramatic change in the source of your discomfort.

20:33

But I’m going to be here with you, I’m not going to toss you away, or send you somewhere else or keep having you jump from position to position. Let’s figure out what little small changes we can make to get you there.

20:48

I think one specific disease process example is diabetic peripheral neuropathy.

20:56

We are one of the leading states in diabetes in the nation. And we have a lot of patients who have severe foot pain, because diabetes damages the nerves in your feet.

21:10

And a lot of those patients ended up in my practice when I got here. And we didn’t really have an answer for it. You know, we tried a lot of things, I tried things that had not been tried before in the literature at all.

21:24

And some of it didn’t work.

21:27

But there was a new product on the market that was doing a multinational research trial. And they were choosing 15 centers around the world to try that treatment for this disease. And for me,

21:47

one of my passions is to make sure that those treatments aren’t just in San Francisco, la in New York. And so I was and with my partner, Eric Peterson, were really persistent about making sure that little rock was a part of that trial. And that trial has been pretty successful. We just published one year data and we’re working on further data. But that is going to change the way that we treat diabetic peripheral neuropathy. Probably going forward. And we have been fortunate to have a few wins like that. And the other is with a disease called complex regional pain syndrome, which is considered the most painful disease known to man. And so

22:34

it’s it’s really been exciting and but it’s really kind of getting together with either my partners locally, or my partner’s nationally or internationally, and coming up to solutions to really complex problems that we’re all seeing in our individual practices. I love that. Obviously, you’re you’re a leader within your practice within the organization, but also within your field on a national level, if not International. And leadership comes in a lot of different forms and functions. And everybody has their way of leading the charge in what they do. What would you say are some of the principles or practices that you apply on a day to day basis to maintain that level of, of motivation with those around you, obviously, you’re very collaborative and your approach to pain management working with other people, what what stands out to you as far as how you lead and what you do?

23:29

You know, for me, it all goes back to sports, pretty simple guy, if I i one time post on Facebook that I learned more on the football field that I learned in the classroom, and I had a few teachers who were pretty upset about that. So I don’t know if I would necessarily say that anymore. But I think that my leadership style definitely came from those moments of being a team captain on a football field. And I see myself, I really see the leader of an organization as a really good quarterback.

24:06

And there are a few analogies there. But the first one is, when a play comes in, and you’re calling a play, you’re in the huddle and all eyes are on you.

24:20

And you have to get 10 other people to buy in to whatever that play is because if one of them doesn’t really believe that the player is going to work and they have to do their job, then the whole plane is going to fall apart. And so that’s the first thing is looking at your team and really making sure that they believe in the mission. And they believe that their piece of that mission is important. You know, sometimes on a football field, your mission is to basically sacrifice your body for the greater glory of some

25:00

What else.

25:02

But helping that person understand how that is so important to the advancement of the mission and the advancement of the team is, is going to be a big part of that.

25:16

The second thing is you get up to the line and you you see what those around you are doing that aren’t a part of your team, and you’re responsible to Audible. And so you have to have the trust of your team and be able to communicate to all of your team members that sometimes we have to change path. And even though we had a plan coming into the situation, COVID is a great example. We need the audible, and I have to be able to quickly communicate that we need to change our focus, but have again have their buy in that even though that they may not be able to see the entire landscape, that they’re going to trust me,

26:00

then I think the last thing is, it’s then my job to make sure that they’re set up for success. So, you know, Tom Brady rarely scores a touchdown.

26:14

The others around him score touchdowns. And so I need to make sure that I call the right audibles to get my team members in the right position. So that they can be successful and use their talents and their abilities, which are all going to be different. So some are going to be running back, some are going to be wide receivers, some are going to be tight ends, they’re going to score touchdowns in very different ways. And make sure that I understand what their natural talents are, and set them up for success. And even though I’m not scoring the touchdown, our greater team is going to rise. And everyone gets credit from the success of this one person who is being celebrated. And so I take those lessons into the workplace. And so I’m constantly thinking about how can I make sure my team has buy in. And that’s by making sure that my team is really educated about the end goal. Even my nurses, my, any of my front desk staff understands the importance of every little thing that we do,

27:24

then making sure that our communication is right so that we can audible at any point. And then really understanding their talents and studying their talents. So that can set them up to be successful.

27:37

I love it to continue with the sports theme. I’m sure Tom Brady, his rookie year.

27:44

He’s learned some things now that he wish he knew back then, of course, him as an example, when a Super Bowl What? Oh, 304 was his first one. So pretty early in his career, he was able to figure some things out go win Super Bowls, and he’s been dominant ever since.

28:01

One, what are some things that you’ve learned over your career that you wish you knew day one, when you first met with your very first patient? And had that opportunity to consult with them and handle their their pain management? Yeah, that’s a that’s a great question. I think that I more and more understand the importance of patient, the patient, physician relationship, and patient physician buy in. So if you, if you break down what I do every day, I have a patient who comes in and delivers really intimate information that they probably haven’t told anyone outside of their family a lot of times, and they expect me to use my talent, expertise and education to really improve their quality of life.

29:00

If any of those things break down, then we’re not going to be successful. So I have to build a relationship in order for them to share all the things that I need to know for me to help them. Then on the other side of the coin, I’ve heard pretty much every quarterback talk about the amount of work that they have to put in, in the NFL the amount of study that they have to do to be prepared for a Sunday.

29:25

I’ve done a lot of education. You know, I did that 13 years of post high school education before I earned my first paycheck as a physician. But that’s not enough. And I have to continue to read the literature. I need to have really young, hungry, talented people around me to ask those difficult questions so that I’ll continue to stay curious

29:51

and I need to make sure that I am continuing to communicate with those who

30:00

are more knowledgeable about specific disease processes than I am. So that I can make sure that I’m delivering the best product. So who are some of those people that, you know in our world we call them Titans? Who are some of the Titans in your life, the mentors, the role models, the celebrities that you look up to and say, you know what they’re doing it pretty cool. I want to apply those principles in my life. Yeah, I was very fortunate that I trained at at Cornell in New York City, which has been one of the kind of stalwarts of chronic pain, one of the original chronic pain programs in the country, if not the world. And so there are a lot of mentors that have come from that program. One being Sudhir Diwan who, who started that program, back 20 years ago, who actually texted with yesterday. And I’m going to go to New York and have dinner with him. And a couple months.

30:58

There’s another person who was a couple years ahead of me, in that same program, named Dr. Woods, high Ed, who is at University of Kansas in my same role. And as I started this program in Arkansas, he was doing the same thing in Kansas, but was kind of two years ahead of me. So having someone who had literally just gone through the every single challenge that I had gone through,

31:26

was extremely helpful. I’d also say that, while you know you, you learn a lot of things from people in your field, I think you also learn so much from those outside of your field. And so really studying kind of the Titans in, in business and the Titans in sports and the Titans and other industries, is also extremely, extremely helpful.

31:55

I 100% agree with that.

32:00

One of the things we’ve been talking about lately is how do we do business better, I really have started to adopt that phrase, because COVID forced us to, in some cases, just do business differently. But really, we hope that that means do business better. Sometimes people don’t look at the medical profession as a business, it’s more quality of life improvement. But of course, there’s financial transactions involved and everything else. So it has to operate like a business just like anything else. How can can your industry or your world do business better? or How are you helping to conduct better business? Yeah, a couple of things, I think that we, as a medical profession, are behind most business organizations, and our ability to track data

32:57

on the patient experience. And that’s something that we’re rapidly catching up on.

33:05

You know, I now use Power BI, for those who are who are out there, you know, I now track I track kind of the quality of our chronic pain interactions throughout our entire hospital system.

33:20

And I think that physicians have been a little resistant to that, because medicine we think of is such a niche and nuanced interaction. And that, you know, the one thing that I’ve heard many old physicians say the, the one difference that separates medicine from other fields is that the customer is not always right.

33:44

But kind of the new school of thought of medicine is, even though the customer may not necessarily understand what’s best for their long term health outcomes.

34:00

It’s my job to educate them on what’s best. But ultimately, I should allow them to make the decisions about their health care. And I may not be the best physician for them, because we may have a disagreement and they you know, we may have to change relationships, which is true of any business.

34:20

But then we should figure out how to best provide that service to the patient, and make sure that the patient is satisfied with the quality of their care. And so really diving into what is good quality care, and tracking those metrics is kind of something that we do now at ua IMS and I do as a part of our clinic. And and I think is really becoming kind of the new wave wave of medicine.

34:53

I love it.

34:55

Part of that whole thing, as you mentioned is customer experience or patient experience.

35:00

every business, every organization, if there’s $1 exchanged for a service or product, there’s an experience to be had. And I think, when it comes to medicine, like you said, it’s it’s one of the few, if not the only industry out there that the patient’s not always right. You know, when you think of the power company, it’s almost, you know, providing electricity into a home or office is, in some regards equally as important, but it’s not 100% necessary tap power, quality of life is a whole lot better with it, just like medicine. And at some point, you have to realize, it is up to the customer or the patient to have an experience that is worth going back to are worth telling somebody else about. And in my mind, and in my business, it’s all about the story, right? So how do we create a better story that allows that person to have a better experience? Or tell somebody else, either the positive or negative experience and ultimately bring more patients more customers more, you know, sales? How do you look at stories, and the outcomes of your patient experiences as the way you’re doing your job? You know, because ultimately, you want to hear these stories, right? I mean, to us, stories matter, stories are important. How do stories fit into your world? Yeah, I want to, I want to touch on a couple things that you said there.

36:23

Starting with the stories piece.

36:27

One of the benefits of being in medicine is oftentimes I get follow up. And so when you put if you know, if you’re a roofer, and you put a new roof on a house, it’s not like you say, Hey, I’m going to come back in three months. And let’s talk about how good the roof is. I see most of my patients after whatever I’m doing, and get to hear what worked and what didn’t work, and begin to really grow that story of that patient experience. And log those stories both physically in an electronic medical system, but also in my brain, so that when I see patterns of new stories, I can then apply those previous stories. The other thing that we’ve changed in our practice is we use a database called promise. And promise asks a series of questions via an iPad. And we do this while patients are waiting for their appointment, that help us understand the story of what’s really the deficit in that patient’s quality of life.

37:42

Patients come to us because they’re in pain. But sometimes the deficit may be that they’re depressed, or they’re not getting enough sleep. And so using those kind of tools, really help us really understand the full story that we may not even get from a patient interaction, because there’s only so much you can gain from a 1520 minute conversation.

38:08

The other thing I wanted to touch on what the patient experience is something that I think that we’ve done in our clinic that’s really different than a lot of other other hospital experiences. His pain is trying to think of a good word, but I’m going to use the word crappy, you know, it’s, it’s not fun to be in pain. And so I’ve really tried to make our experience our total experience as fun as possible. And so I try to encourage our nurses to laugh and joke and there’s normally laughter, there’s noise, there’s music, there’s pretty loud music, in our in our in our recovery room, there is always normally some pretty loud music in our procedure room, when patients are getting procedures. I ask patients what they want to hear, we try to make it as upbeat as possible. So for that little bit of time, while they have to really think about the worst aspect of their life, we try to make it as fun as possible. And hospitals tend to be so sterile and kind of dry. I think that’s been something that I’ve seen that’s really improved our our patient experiences is kind of zigging in that regard when everyone else is asking, I love it when it adds to the story, right? Because the second a customer stops talking about what you did for them. The story’s over, right? And if they’re going to go out and tell people how their lives better or improved because not only did the medicine work, but the experience worked, and they keep telling that story. I think that’s super important.

39:50

So if I’m a patient or a potential patient who experiences some level of pain, what do I do? Where do I turn? What what’s the patient

40:00

To alleviate this pain,

40:03

yeah, so

40:06

patients are normally referred to us from other physicians,

40:11

primary care doctors surgeons, so if you would like to see us then, you know, pain at you a pain that your MSA Edu just throwing out there.

40:21

But your physician can send us a referral. And patients then are seen by me or one of my four colleagues in our clinic space. And it’s really a conversation about what you’ve gone through. And how we can. And my question that I always like to ask is, what is your goal? What are you able, what do you want to do that you’re not able to do, and then we create a plan to help you get there.

40:54

Sometimes that plan includes medications, and hopefully non opioid medications, but sometimes, you know, with a lack of options that can become opioids.

41:04

Most time, that becomes some sort of procedural intervention. And so I spend 60% of my time in a procedure room. And that’s kind of the other half of our clinic, where patients come in, and we, you know, it may be that your knee after a knee replacement, doesn’t work in the same way that you hoped it would, and you have really severe pain, when you walk, well, maybe I can burn off the nerve that goes to the knee replacement, so that you don’t feel that hinze going back and forth, so that you can walk a little better without pain, maybe it’s that you’ve had seven spine surgeries, and you have a lot of nerves that are encased in scar and they are not sending functional signals to your brain. So maybe I can put a little electrical lead similar to a pacemaker on your spinal cord above the area where you had all those surgeries to intercept and use the correct frequency to intercept those dysfunctional nerve signaling so that your brain doesn’t catch them sounds almost like the noise canceling feature in my air pods. Right. So it’s, it’s still there, we’re just masking it is that exactly, that’s exactly exactly what we’re doing. Allowing you to still function still do all the things you need to, but getting rid of that kind of that noise that’s bothering you.

42:32

And so it can be any number of things. And then that’s kind of when we bring you into. And of course, patients are nervous. Patients haven’t heard of these kinds of treatments before, they seem scary, you know, having something, I’m going to burn a nerve in your knee, or I’m going to put an electrical lead in your spine, or all those things. So that’s where that bind comes in. And that’s where that you know, what we call in anesthesiology. ainsdale. ISIS comes in and trying to remove or help kind of mitigate someone’s anxiety. So helping make sure that the experience is good. So that patients when they leave, they say, you know, I really expected that to be terrible, but it was actually kind of a lot of fun. And the people were smiling.

43:20

And I could tell that everyone cared for me. And that’s what we’re shooting for. I love it. And I can only imagine the outcome and the result.

43:32

And the satisfaction with life that a lot of your patients are able to experience because they were able to come and take that leap. get educated. I’m assuming education is such a huge part of what you do too. Because, yeah, I would think every patient it goes in you say you’re gonna burn something off my knee will tell me about like, educated make me feel okay with this process, because that sounds more painful than the pain I’m already in.

43:59

But yeah, I think that’s, that’s incredible. And I tell people all the time, you know, in our world, in our storytelling world, we aren’t saving lives, right. But what we are doing is helping other people be impacted by the stories we’re telling. Because just like this story that you’ve told us today,

44:17

without the story of what you guys are doing, how many people are out there living in pain every day because they don’t know there’s an option. And so I commend you on everything you do. I want to jump into some quick hit questions. Get a little personality behind the the doctor here. What’s the best or latest book that you’ve read? So my my favorite book is lies my teacher told me

44:42

because not really fully because of the content. But what’s the contents amazing, but it’s a book that really goes through moments in history that we’re told incorrectly

44:57

but it really reminds

45:00

To me that

45:03

our education can’t stop in the classroom? And that we have to continue to question what we’ve been told, you know, a classic example of that I’m really passionate about making sure that

45:19

minority minorities get the same level of health care that others get. And one of the lies that has been told historically in medicine is that black people don’t feel pain the same way that everyone else does.

45:33

And kind of if you take what you learn in the classroom at face value, then you can propagate incorrect information, and actually harm lives. So sorry, I turned that quick hit into a long hit. I think that’s incredibly important to think about, and I could definitely dive into that for a long time. I mean, I’ve said all the time, because sometimes people say, Well, what did you What was your biggest takeaway from college? or What did you learn in college? And I say, really, I don’t remember the classroom. Honestly, what I learned is how to learn, because you should never stop learning, you should never stop questioning, you should never stop exploring and getting better, and understanding the world better. And I agree with you 100%. I think, you know, do teachers do incredibly valuable things? Absolutely. And I have a lot of teachers that I can credit, a lot of, you know, how to learn references from you know, but I can’t remember what I took away in that classroom. But I can know that I’m smarter today than I was last year, because I continue to learn. So I appreciate that. What’s a daily routine that you have to do, I would say exercise. And I had an ankle injury, pretty severe ankle injury in in January. And just like everyone who has the means to do so on the planet did during the pandemic, I bought a peloton.

46:55

But moving my body and clearing my mind, having time when I have to focus on getting through a workout is essential for me to get through my day. And when that was taken for me. From about two months, one I gained a little bit of weight, but two,

47:13

I noticed a change in my mental health. And so I now know that that’s something I have to do to stay healthy. Absolutely. Yeah, I think

47:22

a lot of people, myself included, because I mean, it was probably about four or five years ago that I really started to get back into exercising consistently fell off a lot during the pandemic, of course, because I’m a gym guy, I have to go somewhere to exercise.

47:38

And the mental health aspect of it is huge. That I think a lot of people that just aren’t used to it or don’t exercise don’t realize the impact to the mental side of the physical gain that you get from it.

47:53

What is the best piece of advice that you even either given or received? It’s it’s something that my father told me, and it’s really corny. And I actually said it yesterday, I gave a talk to a bunch of college athletes who are looking to go into medicine is that your network is your net worth.

48:15

You know, in the in the black community, we use a lot of alliteration, but I think that it the people around you is what matters. And a lot of my success has been because I’ve been fortunate to have really talented people around me to keep me focused, and to make sure that I am doing all the things that I need to be successful and I’m reading the right things I’m continuing to work out. And those those people you know more than anyone I mean, it includes my wife, Maya, who I’ve known since I was 18 years old, but a number of other people, my family, my friends, etc. Love it. If you could write a book or have a billboard with a short message on it, what would the title of that book be? Or what would that billboard say? To steal a phrase from Kevin Garnett? I think it would be that anything is possible.

49:13

Love it.

49:15

What’s the best thing you’ve bought in the last year for under $100

49:20

so I’m going to nerd out for a second as you can tell, I’m not for folks listening. I’m not good at quick hit so sorry. Love it. Really two things. I have really my wife is vegan and right now for the past three months I’ve actually been become vegan.

49:37

And so we have because of the pandemic really cooked a lot at home. And so we have every single cook Cooking gadget known to man right now. So the first one is a coal chimney. Because I have I grill and now smoke and I make the best brisket even though I can’t eat it anymore.

50:00

But switching from lighter fluid to lighting my own colds has been a huge change. So that’s one. The second is a serrated bread knife, actual bread knife.

50:12

I, my wife has made me realize that you need more than one knife in your house. And so now we have, like, all the super nice, you know, all the super nice knives. And I was like, oh, when you cut bread, it’s actually a clean slice, if you use the right knife. Got it. So that’s something I learned during the pandemic. Obviously, this is something that probably everyone else listening already knew. And I’m a Neanderthal and I did not know. But when you cut bread with a steak knife, it doesn’t come out as a clean slice. So that’s probably number one. I have a really

50:54

talking about nerding out. I won’t share it here. But a really interesting story of random pieces of information I learned years ago about knives and blades and why serrated works better in some cases than a flat but you know, all the So what? We’ll talk about that over coffee sometime, anytime. All right, favorite artist or musician? I would say, Wow, that is that’s a very challenging question. Because I another way to put it is what’s the next concert you want to go see.

51:28

That made it even harder.

51:31

You know, I lived in New York City for eight years. And I actually only saw maybe one movie my entire time in New York City because I went to a concert a week. And so I saw a lot of really amazing artists.

51:49

You know, the best concert I ever saw. And this probably is my favorite artists is Robert glasper. He is a jazz pianist who did all the music for the Miles Davis, Miles Davis movie that came out a couple years ago. And he has a jazz trio and then a group called the experience where there’s a key tourist and an electric basis. And

52:19

absolutely amazing kind of really niche like as, as my father would say confusion fusion jazz. And so that’s kind of where I go, but I listen to I mean, if you told me there was a concert next door, and it was I’d never heard of the person I’d probably go But yeah, I love like live music and the Kitab is an underrated instrument that I think needs to make a resurgence. Completely underrated. You’ve already alluded to this, but maybe you have a different answer but favorite food or restaurant. You said you make a really good brisket. So I make a really good brisket. But I am I’m vegan right now. So right now my favorite food is probably beyond burgers. That sounds crazy. But I’m really kind of nerding out on how the vegan meat alternative world has really exploded. And it’s just it’s just been mind blowing. I would say favorite restaurant is is probably ucci in Austin. Absolutely love that restaurant. High quality sushi, high quality food. Nice. Love it. Yeah, I think I’m due for a trip to Austin, so I’ll have to check it out soon.

53:35

Dr. Gorrie, what else have we have? We skipped over that that’s an important part of your message.

53:41

You know, I think the one thing that I haven’t really touched on a lot in this conversation is the importance. And I put this out there because I think it’s important for the titans of any industry. I think that diversity is important. And I think paramount to improving outcomes and making sure and a lot of times we talk about diversity, we always focus on race, but having differences of opinions and differences of life experiences in a room where decisions have made or made, making sure that there are women, people who grew up in impoverished backgrounds, people of different sexual orientations

54:29

who understand where the customer or the patient may be coming from, that may not be seen by kind of the majority. It is something that I think that we as a community and a nation really need to work on cultivating talent at a very young age so that we have pipelines of people from different backgrounds and experiences. And I think that making that change, really improve the quality of

55:00

product of patient experience of business interactions across our country. I love that. Well, Dr. Jonathan glory. Thank you so much for taking the time. I really appreciate you sitting down and having this conversation with me. Thanks, native. I’ve known you for a long time. And so I appreciate and congrats on everything that you’re doing. And this was a fun conversation. A great, thanks, man.

55:28

If you like this episode of titans of industry, head to content Titan dot CEO slash podcast for more episodes or subscribe on your favorite podcasting app. And if you know of an industry Titan that’s doing amazing things. Let us know on social media or through our website so we can tell their story. Thanks for listening

00:00

You need to schedule an organized enough so that their structure but also leave room for the other things to happen. That’s when the magic happens is when you’re not expecting it.

00:11

Hey, it’s Nate Disarro and welcome to titans of industry, the podcast where I talk to industry leaders and innovators who are at the top of their game and leading the pack in their fields uncovering some of the best stories in today’s business landscape. This was a fun episode where I sat down with Gina scarpulla, the director of creative and production for the internal creative agency for discovery Inc, the parent company of the largest nonfiction media network in the world. Gina tells us how she and her team developed the branding and marketing campaign for the new streaming service discovery plus during the pandemic and the challenges that came along with it, but ultimately, how execution is so crucial for her team’s success in producing some of the globe’s most recognizable television shows and marketing content. We also dive into a discussion about how a collaboration between Shark Week and an automotive brand led to underwater adventures that connects the story between a car maker and shark fans. Now in an effort to increase your listening interest Gina, and I thought it would be a great idea to record this episode on the beach in Malibu, California. So as you will quickly notice, there’s the sound of the ocean underneath our conversation. Some of you might find this moderately distracting. While hopefully many more of you enjoy the tranquil sounds of Mother Nature in the background. Now let’s get to the episode. But before we do, our team at content Titan wants you to know that we understand the challenges business leaders and marketers are facing right now, with moving to a more virtual world. We are experts in taking human connections and turning them digital. From virtual Events and Video presentations to promotional content and advertising. We’re here to help guide you through the process of staying in front of your audience and making your life a little bit easier. People tell us all the time that they are lost and don’t know what to say or do and we exist to help your business continue to move forward, virtual. So if you’re ready to take your business and content strategy virtual, we’re ready to help. Let’s get your business back to business.

02:11

Now, please enjoy my conversation with Gina scarpulla.

02:17

Alright, Gina, thanks so much for agreeing to jump on the podcast. And this is a first for us. We’ve done location interviews plenty of times, and everything from audio recording studios in Nashville to restaurants and everything in between. This is the first one on the beach in sunny Southern California. So thanks for agreeing to do this thanks for agreeing to do it, where I can get my toes in the sand. It’s very exciting. So for those of you who might like to look at the little video promos we typically have we don’t have a video camera on the beach today. So it’s audio only. However, we will put some pics somewhere

02:58

associated with this. So you can live vicariously through our interview. So if you are hearing waves in the background, that’s why

03:07

there may be a plane or helicopter to that fly overhead. But it’s an experience that I will forever. Appreciate. So once again, thank you, Gina. You’re welcome. Welcome to Malibu, thank you, I am excited to have this conversation. You and I have known each other now for I don’t know, six, seven years, something like that possibly longer. Yeah, we went a while together the first time

03:30

through distance, I think some programming it was on TLC. And so it was a pleasure for me to get to work with all of the team at Discovery, Inc, which is the parent company of Discovery Channel, TLC, all these channels that we all know. So talk me through a little bit, first of all about your internal organization and how that works. Because there’s a lot of layers, a lot of it’s a big company, and how did you end up there. So I work for an internal creative agency. We do everything from long form shows on air promotions, digital prints, out of home, anything and everything that could be done from a marketing branding, storytelling perspective, our team gets to touch, super exciting, never boring. And we’re constantly adding more and more layers on it as marketing evolves and different marketing channels evolve. I’ve been with discovery for about 10 years now. I started in this business kind of by accident. I went to graduate school for communication, culture and technology and media studies, was bartending in grad school and met a great team from National Geographic and got an internship, got my first job there afterwards working on series in their series department so various Natural History series at National Geographic and then went freelance for a couple of years try it out the production thing

05:00

My own and then started at Discovery and I kind of worked my way up from associate producer on to I’m a director now at at Discovery in their internal databases.

05:11

Very cool. It is very lucky, very grateful that along the way, there’s been, you know, I’ve had a few conversations with you where you’re getting ready to go somewhere in the world where in the world is seen on a boat? chasing sharks, right? So a lot. Yes, that happened. Your passion. So tell me a little bit about that piece of, of your career, your life and and how does one end up on a boat chasing sharks? It’s, it’s one of the parts of my job that I am constantly amazed that I get to do. I was the kid watching Shark Week growing up going, how do you get to be on that boat I want to go someone’s job is to be on that boat hang out with sharks and through a lot of kind of right, right place right time, I was able to start working with various Shark Week productions. We do a lot of branded entertainment, storytelling driven marketing for Shark Week in various clients. And you know, if I’m lucky, once a year, twice a year, I get to go out and be on a shark boat, or go to a forest in China to film pandas or macaws in Costa Rica. It’s a very, very fulfilling, exciting part of my job to be able to share stories of conservation of these animals and these experiences that other people don’t get to see. Be able to bring it to a global audience.

06:37

I would venture to say that probably if I had to guess 80% of the people that would listen to this episode, would be incredibly jealous that you get to spend your life chasing sharks and do being in a cage with not a cage. Oh, there’s been there’s been no cages before. There’s been no cages with the sharks or the pandas.

06:58

Insane. Yep.

07:01

So

07:02

that to say, over the last, what year, you’re in some change, the world seems a little bit, yes. A little more difficult, especially International.

07:13

So talk to me a little about how discoveries change where it’s going, and how that’s affected sort of the day to day of your job.

07:23

I mean, pretty much overnight, like any other industry, we had to change our workflow in about 48 hours. We used to edit and do our post production in offices, everything was local. And pretty much overnight had to figure out how we were going to keep moving in a remote environment, through zoom through shared storage through new technologies. I’m incredibly proud of the way that discovery as a company and my team handled that we were pretty much up and running. You know, we went home on a Friday. And I think, you know, we never really stopped working. And we probably have had one of the busiest years we’ve ever had. And that all is due to the team effort. Everybody kind of buckled down knew what they needed to do focused on the job that needs to happen. And we all adapted to new ways of working. And some of them actually were better than they were beforehand. And we were able to try things out that we weren’t able to do when we were in an office. I think everyone misses the travel and is excited to get back out in the world and getting to meet amazing people and tell great stories and bring bring the world to the rest of the world. That’s one of the things we do best at Discovery is bring people to places they can’t normally go. So we’re all excited to get back out and do that soon. I love it.

08:42

And the brand is a whole discovery as a whole. So we’ve all known it previously as you know the Discovery Channel. So you get on your your TV, and at 7pm. I want to watch this show. And that’s that’s discovery, TLC and animal planet and all these these great platforms that you guys have only a few years ago, discovery and scripts coming together now Food Network HGTV, some of the greatest shows that everybody loves to watch. And now once again, we’re making a big shift into the digital space. So we see

09:15

discovery plus lunch. Yes. And you’ve heard of it. I’ve heard of

09:21

advertising for it. How many a lot over the place. It’s everywhere. So talk to me, how does this advertising happen? How does it get out? I know, you mentioned before we started recording that it was quite the process. The timeline was fairly aggressive to get this thing done. So this is a massive undertaking. And it’s Yeah, it’s

09:41

just walk walk us through that because I think it’s really fascinating to see how are you a global company can mobilize in a pandemic and push advertising out of this scope, dealing with people all over the country. And you’re right I mean, that’s that’s part of it is not only did we launch a brand new streaming

10:00

nervous, we did it in the middle of a global pandemic, while working from home. And

10:07

the team, I mean, it comes down to it starts with a team, right? Like you have the best team you have everyone is rowing in the same direction everybody is pushing toward the same goal. There were challenges as there is with anything. None of us had done this before. This was new. This was something that we were all figuring out as we went along. And we had all the right people in the right places to make decisions and problem solve and just keep moving forward. And I think that was the big thing for all of us was it was one foot in front of the next and just keep moving forward, no matter what kind of came our way. We just kept going toward that goal of getting getting it launched and getting it out into the world. And I think everybody’s also really proud of the product. And when you’re proud of what you are working on. And when you are invested in what you’re working on that comes through. Everybody was personally invested and wanted this to succeed and want people to be excited. I mean, it’s,

11:06

it’s still it’s crazy that people come up and they’ll say, when they find out I work on Discovery, plus, Oh, I love that I this this show is amazing. And I use your products, same thing with surgery. And it still boggles my mind that that we get to touch that many people and do something like that, that is part of people’s day to day life, we get to come into their homes every day. And people take the time to watch the stories that we tell and watch what we put out. That means a lot to all of us, it’s not does not go unnoticed.

11:37

So I’m fascinated, obviously being a storyteller, content creator, somebody that understands the work that goes into assembling pieces of content, especially under the gun and needing the right resources. But you guys are doing at a level where you’re dealing with big personalities you’re dealing with,

11:54

you know, your public company. So there’s, of course, a lot of elements that go into getting this thing, right, you can’t just make it up as you got me into the girl, you’re on the global stage, always, you’re always you have to be cognizant of that you are on a global stage. And what you put out matters. And what you put out will be seen by people, in this case, a lot of people, which was great, but it was a lot of people. So talking about how does this team rally around itself to you know, do things on a condensed timeline in a way that’s not been done before? Because it didn’t have to be done this way before usually go to the office, I really collaborate, you get whatever elements you need to capture, and you get to work well. Now, you can’t do that. Um, what are the hours look like? What did the workspace look like?

12:42

How many zoom calls you want a day? You don’t want to know that, sir? Well, I work out of my dining room. I think like most of us, we have made little makeshift home offices, which which has worked and we’ve we’ve made it work. The hours are long, but the hours are long. For anything, I think that is a big project, you know, leading up to Shark Week shoots, the hours are long. Anyone who gets into production knows it is not a nine to five job. You do the work when you have to do the work. And I think for a lot of us actually being home helps because we could work longer hours and take a break, have dinner, spend time with families and then go back and do what needed to be done. And that helps I think,

13:26

like I said, everyone was going in the same direction. So everybody stepped up and said, here’s how I can help. Here’s the skill sets I have what I have this idea, like everybody’s ideas were welcome. There was a lot of collaboration, a lot of zoom meetings. There were some days we just kept it open zoom and just stayed on it. And we talked through things as we needed to. It also helped a lot of us in various teams had worked together before. So there was a level of trust and a level of camaraderie and family really, that we were all there for each other. We all covered each other, we supported each other. And I think in the end it worked out it was

14:06

it was a success. So one of the things that I think is important to talk about with with any endeavor, and especially one that like you were telling me about how discovery got lost.

14:17

It’s not all smooth sailing. There’s there’s trials and tribulations and probably some failures along the way. But failures ultimately make us stronger. And then they get us one step closer to success. So did you guys see any major hurdles you had to overcome other than of course the distance piece of it and everything else but but things that didn’t work, things you had to rework telling you were trying to get a hold of it couldn’t do things you wanted to do? What’s something that stands out that was one of the biggest challenges that you feel like?

14:50

There’s always there’s always ways to learn and there’s not one particular failure per se that stands out. I think even now, we’re only six months into

15:00

This the launch of discovery plus. And every time we do things, we learn a better way to do it from the time before we learn how to create efficiencies, and we learn how to make make something even better than it was even six months ago. And I look back at some of the processes that we put in place was we had to build all new processes for this. All new ways of naming things, organizing things, communicating things, you’re talking about the amount of assets for a global launch, like this is massive, and the amount of people that need to access them. So we had to build system. We liken it to you know, building, building the plane, while you know you’re flying down a cliff, you have to build it as it’s happening. There’s no time to preemptively build something and then test it out and see if it works. And I look back at even some of the early systems we had six months ago. And we’ve come so far now from that. And that’s all from learning and evaluating. There’s a lot of research that goes on, a lot of our decisions are made based on research, we listen to our customers, we talk about things, we evolve things and want to make them better in the end.

16:12

I love it. And I agree completely.

16:15

So if you have to think back of all the things you’ve done in your career, and I know there’s been a lot of growth and learning, which is what happens to all of us. But what’s something that stands out that you wish you knew earlier, that once you figured it out, you were like, wow, this changes the game. This makes things different.

16:33

I mean, organization, I was always organized. But I really see

16:39

I really see the benefit of being organized, but also figuring out rooms for things to happen as they will. I was someone when I started early on that like to see all steps of the process happen before I did them. And so I would over schedule things. And I would look at things and want to get every single part of the process done from draft script all the way through post production, I wanted to be able to see it. And then I realized that part of the beauty of what we do have both storytelling and production and marketing in this sense, whether it’s traditional marketing, branded entertainment, or even just sharing a story on a documentary piece, you need to schedule an organized enough so that their structure, but also leave room for the for the other things to happen. Because that’s when the special stuff happens. That’s when the magic happens is when you’re not expecting it. I’ve gone out on Shark boats before where we’ve had all days scheduled from morning until night, and had to throw out the schedule on day one. And the stuff that happened was things that we never would have expected to happen. I did get chased by a Maiko on a inflatable boat during that trip, but that I was not expecting, but it was fine. But it’s leaving that room for for life to happen. And for those stories to happen, a lot of the stuff we do is unscripted. And that’s where I find the most fun is letting go enough that I let things happen as they will and it really gives them wonderful results.

18:05

Alright, I want to focus a little bit and talk about the storytelling angle and the way that the internal agency works within the bigger picture of discovery. Because essentially,

18:17

what you guys do is take a brand, whatever that brand is lately, it’s been discovery plus as a brand. But it’s also your clients, your advertisers that we want. We want storytelling done the way that discovery does it. And we want to attach ourselves to that story. And that’s how we want to market and advertise our product or service is through this type of storytelling that that discovery does. So talk me through what are some of the favorite projects you’ve done that are sort of branded content? That’s easy. That’s an easy one. I mean, that’s those are the those are really fun. We’re very lucky. So our internal agency works with internal clients. So we work with all of the networks. We are also the corporate communications and branding team. We work with a lot of nonprofits, conservation groups, government agencies, but we also get to work with brands that everybody knows and loves. And figuring out a way to tell a brand story mixed with our DNA and our storytelling and the stories that only discover you can tell is a really fun thing to do. It’s a really fun challenge. And it can really lead to some incredibly creative things. I mean, one of my favorites and it will, it will always be a favorite is we had a client that is a car maker, automobile maker. And we created a shark cage in the shape of a very iconic car and we drove it underwater with a bunch of sharks and then the next year, they wanted to make it a convertible. So we did and we put thrusters on it and we made it fly. And like it’s completely ridiculous and wonderful and the two brands blended together so seamlessly.

19:58

The car was

20:00

beautiful and functional. And it was something that no one had ever done before, that we were able to do. And it was something that garnered recognition for shark week as a brand, as well as our client as well. And those are the type of projects that are really exciting when you can satisfy both brands and come together with a seamless story. I love it. And I think that’s, that’s the essence of modern day storytelling is you want that seamlessness to be there, you don’t want it to feel like you’re being sold something, you want to be so engrossed with the story, you want to be a part of it, that as a viewer, I just want to like, just if you slap a logo on at the end, like I’m going to buy that thing, because I was fortunately the shark cage car is not for sale.

20:46

Well, maybe that’ll be a side business, we’ll have to start. I got to do our own little shark cage business. Cars, but

20:55

but I think that’s the brilliance. And the genius of modern day storytelling is inviting people into that story saying, here’s a world that you want to be in We Are we almost exclusively do real people’s stories.

21:07

People who genuinely use the products or live the brand that we are talking about. It’s for me, it’s great. I have a documentary storytelling background. So it’s a great way to blend those two things.

21:20

And it’s also really wonderful to just share really interesting people’s stories, you get to meet some fascinating people.

21:28

We worked with astronomers and paleontologists and adventurers, and obviously shark experts, all different sorts of people all around the world, and we get to share their stories in a really unique and meaningful way.

21:42

So what’s something that that to you is probably a normal everyday

21:48

thing that you deal with, but to the general public, it would be a complete surprise if they heard the amount I talk about sharks probably that happens a lot.

21:59

That’s that’s something especially this time of year, you know, shark weeks, about a month away. So this time, this time of year, there’s a lot of discussion of sharks and I forget, in except when I’m around people who don’t are not in my industry, and they go Wow, you really talk about sharks a lot. That is something that is very, that is something that is not normal for most people’s conversation. I also think I mean, we,

22:23

we operate in such a global world. And I think, you know, we

22:28

we know what we’re doing day to day, we know the kind of work we’re doing. And then you got those moments where you see it out in the world. And it’s it’s exciting. And it’s fun. And we’re talking about things that for some people

22:41

are is entertainment for them or something they’d never meet. They know talking about our talent, or the types of projects we’re working on is very just commonplace. And then you meet someone and they go, Oh, I love that person. I’d love to meet them or talk about them.

22:55

So what’s it like working with some of this talent because I know you know, we all watch these people on TV and we we love their personalities or we hate on sometimes it’s it’s a mix of both. But you get to work in a different way creating promos and doing different pieces of content that you get to see behind the curtain.

23:13

what’s what’s that process look like when you’re dealing with somebody that the whole world knows who they are. And you have to deal with them on a professional level, get them in the right place at the right time, tell them what to do or say or it’s wonderful. I mean, the great thing about our talent is they are real people. What you see is what you get and

23:33

our talent is they are who they are for a reason. They are chefs are actual chefs, the fishermen are actual captains, they are these this is what people do for a living. The contractors do home renovation, this is what they do. And so you’re getting a very authentic, very genuine person. And so it’s a really wonderful experience to work with them.

23:56

You know, we as an internal agency have the benefit of you know, we know all of our brands, we have a lot of networks domestically, as well as internationally. You get to know the brands you get to know the people. And there’s we’re all part of a larger family. So it’s a really great experience to work with them. There’s a lot of them are producers in their own right. So there is a very great professional relationship where they know the job that needs to get done. They’re incredibly collaborative. And everybody again, it’s going back to earlier have everyone’s rowing in the same direction. We’re all part of one family who was trying to a very large family go in the same direction. So it’s less like outside talent and more like we’re working with colleagues and friends. Family so they’re our talent is wonderful. I’m gonna ask you and I have a feeling you’re not going to answer it. But do you have a favorite?

24:45

A lot of favorites. I mean,

24:49

I in a garden is one of my favorites has has been one of my favorites for a long time. For those who don’t know it’s not in a garden. No, no, it is not

25:00

The Barefoot Contessa herself Contessa Food Network,

25:04

Rhode Island, Hampton Long Island.

25:08

So what what about her stands out to you? what’s what’s so appealing is is that a personal preference is that somebody that you think would be easy to work with? I’ve been a fan of Food Network and cooking. You know, I love to cook I like to eat. I like food. And she just is someone I like her. I like her recipes. First off, I think she’s a wonderful chef. I like her personality. I like the way that she travels the world. She’s a long island girl like I am. So I like that, you know, there’s a little bit of the hometown pride there. She’s just, she’s just someone who seems like a wonderful person. And I appreciate her content. And I like her content a lot.

25:49

Also found the Deadliest Catch captain. Those guys are great. I, it’s hard to pick a favorite. Have you been on a Deadliest Catch boat? Not yet. I have been on the shark boat that has been in a lot of waves. But nothing like Deadliest Catch. Like that ever happens, we’re gonna do a follow up episode sounds like a play, I just want to hear about that experience, you know how it’s gonna end? Not well.

26:12

Alright, so

26:14

I think everybody gets to a point in their career where you get there, because you’ve had help along the way. So is there anybody stands out to you, whether it’s people from afar or close by, or that you look at and say that’s a that’s a mentor, that’s a Titan of mine. That’s somebody that I will come to

26:33

mean, obviously, friends and family, of course, you know, they, especially the last year have supported me, my careers and know that my career is important in my work is important.

26:44

I do have someone that when I first started at the job in mind, now I was an associate producer, I did not have a lot of experience as a post producer, or someone who sat in an edit bay and knew how to give direction well, to an editor, one of the things I learned is you have to be very confident with your direction as someone who is leading creative, whether it’s a designer and editor, etc, you have to be competent in that. And I didn’t know that when I first started out. And there is an executive producer still works on our team, who said, I’m giving you the opportunity, you’re only going to learn by doing it, get in the booth, get in the edit suite and do it. And she pushed me out of my comfort, she still pushes me out of my comfort zone she did yesterday, she was giving me some advice yesterday. And as someone who consistently knows where my line is, and knows how to push me over it and go, I’m gonna give you the tools to succeed. And I credit her with a lot of my career and I tell her it all the time. But she’s, she’s someone who I think,

27:43

really pushed me in the direction I’m in now. I love it. Well, I met several people kind of within your, your organization and circle, and

27:55

I don’t think I’ve met anybody that I was like, well, they’re just okay. I mean, it seems like it’s a plus team really knows their stuff, but they push themselves and push each other, they also care about each other. I mean, we, when I say we’re a family, we are a family, a lot of us have worked together for a very long time. We know what kind of coffee each other, like know what each other’s lunch order is we know each other’s families, we check in on each other, we do push each other, we challenge each other, you know, we we have disagreements on things which ultimately get us into a better place. And it’s one of the reasons I’ve stayed at Discovery for so long is we are better as a team together and we get so much more done. And that takes time. That’s years of fostering those relationships. And I’m really grateful for the team I have, it’s it’s wonderful and it keeps getting better. We keep adding new people all the time. And it’s great to have them part of the family now. It’s awesome.

28:50

So in a

28:52

in a simplified sense, you guys are almost a business within a business, your internal agency sort of serves multiple clients and are all internal under the same thing.

29:04

So looking at your group, your division, independently, one of the questions I like to ask is, you know, every business or every entity, and if you consider yourselves an independent entity, you ultimately succeed or fail because of what I think are three things and I want you to rank these in order of importance, and then give me the why. Okay, ideas, execution and culture.

29:36

So we’re gonna rank those in order of important execution ideas and culture.

29:41

executions. Number one, we are the team that gets it done. That is that is ultimately at the end of the day. One of the reasons Our team is so successful is whether it is

29:52

traditional production, or it’s, hey, we’re gonna do this thing called VR. Can you guys try it? Sure. Hey, we’re gonna launch this new streaming service. Can you guys do

30:00

Okay, we are the team that gets it done. We’re constantly evolving. We’re constantly learning part of our success

30:07

is that we can execute. Everything is figure out.

30:12

If you’ve heard the book from real Florio, everything is figured out, basically, yeah. Whether it’s been done or not, we’ll figure it out. And we’ve had, we’ve had times where we’re like, oh, well, this is fun. You know, there’s,

30:26

there’s a lot of stuff. And it’s, you look back, and you’re like, oh, okay, well, we figured that all out. But you’re right, it is everything is figured out edible. But our team can execute, we deliver, and we do what it has to do with us to get done to get the job done. And to make our clients happy. And to make the company happy. We have a very high standard that we live up to. And yeah, and you have to you have, we have two large organizations that are the stakeholders in your execution. large, large for your clients and advertisers. Yeah.

31:00

So executions, number one,

31:04

ideas, and number two, talking about why the idea piece

31:09

falls, where does

31:12

ideas piece is important, I think it’s obviously we need good ideas, we need creative ideas.

31:19

We need to be able to come to our clients with things that are interesting and unique, whether it’s edits, we need to be able to come to our clients with with interesting ideas, unique ideas, whether it’s a title treatment, or some sort of graphic package for

31:36

I campaign, or it’s a how to build a shark cage car, or whatever it is, it’s it’s definitely important. I mean, all three things that you listed out are important.

31:45

Sometimes we have to start the execution before the ideas are there. So I think that’s why it’s just just a hair under execution. Which is interesting, because a lot of people would say, well, you have to have the idea, and then you go execute on the idea. But I know in the past, we’ve talked about the fact that you guys are a day out from a shoot and the shoots, not even 100% greenlit or something, and you have to evolve, I think you evolved the idea, sometimes. And this is one of the things that I learned early on. So sometimes the idea and the and the execution kind of go on a parallel path together, that things will evolve, and you kind of pick up, you pick up things along the way that make the idea even better than it was when you first started it similar to an edit, you start with an idea with an edit, you write a script, and then you add another layer of music. And then the editor takes it and they add their their pacing and their timing and, and their layer onto it. And then you add graphics. And a lot of times for the best, what you come out with at the end piece is not exactly what you thought of at the beginning. But it’s still wonderful because there was this collaboration of all of these different experts who added their piece to this to this idea into this creative.

33:01

Alright, so from from what I know about you and sort of the background that you’ve had, what are some of the skill sets that you would say, have helped you become successful in your field and continue to grow in an organization that’s constantly evolving, constantly doing things that I’ve never been done before?

33:21

research,

33:23

constantly researching, and that includes asking questions when you don’t know, asking questions of people who are smarter than you or who are experts in things that you don’t know, not being afraid to ask questions. When I first started discovery, I ran around with a lot of questions because I did not know a lot of things at the time. Also being organized. I am much more effective when I’m organized and I know where to find things. I spend less time looking for things and more time doing the bigger thinking and deeper thinking that needs to happen.

33:54

And also, I think interpersonal communication skills, of being able to talk to not only clients but being able to talk to your colleagues being able to work through difficult scenarios with them. Being able to also be empathetic. I think being empathetic is something that as much as sometimes people want to break out business and personal. It’s not especially in an industry like ours, where you spend a lot of time with the same people and being able to be empathetic, whether it’s to someone you’re interviewing or someone you’re working with. I think that is kind of one of those skills that doesn’t get talked about enough, but does lead to building better relationships, more trust and ultimately a better product.

34:38

Okay.

34:40

Let’s move into the sort of quick questions and answer So, firstly,

34:47

what is the best or latest book that you’ve read?

34:53

I just finished a book called why fish don’t exist, which is great. There’s about a naturalist who tries to find

35:00

Order in the world only to find out that chaos constantly rains. Great for someone in production. I highly recommend it. That is that is a great that is a great book. I like that that’s the most recent that I finished.

35:12

Are you a podcast person do any podcasts? I do. I do. I do love podcasts. I like a variety of them. Obviously yours. Yours is great. You are not forced to say that. But I totally was he totally bribed me now it is great. And I’m super proud of you for it.

35:30

I like a variety of things. Um, some of my my constant rotations are this one to table,

35:38

Ted Radio Hour, ask Eliza anything hilarious, totally recommend. There’s actually a really great one about the fall of the Roman Empire.

35:48

And wild ideas worth living is also really great, too.

35:54

So there’s a lot I do like podcasts, Lindsey to add to the legacy.

35:58

What is a daily routine that you have to do every single day.

36:03

Besides feed my cat.

36:07

I try to take a couple minutes each day to sit outside, whether it’s in the morning while I’m drinking my coffee, watch the sunrise or at the end of the day that just sit outside and just not in front of a screen, not in front of my phone and just sit and be outside. Even if it’s just for five minutes a day has to happen. I love that way

36:28

to move off that portion of it because I do want to hit on this real quick. But Los Angeles was hit by the pandemic in a way that a lot of places Weren’t you know, you’ve got an area here. That’s somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 million people. Yep. And the place shut down. You could hardly even go outside. So

36:45

I think to people in different parts of the country that may seem crazy to just like go outside but you guys didn’t go to the office once. We’re still not we’re still not in the office. We went home on March 13 and have not been back since

37:01

locked up collecting dust. Yep, that’s crazy. Restaurants are just you know, started. We opened up outdoor dining, we’re just started recently opening up indoor dining. But on the flip side, living in a place like Los Angeles respite in nature was huge. Being able to go outside, come to the beach like this to be able to sit on the beach, to be able to go hiking to be able to just sit outside my own house and feel the sun and listen to the birds was was a big respite. So I was I’m relatively new to LA so it was definitely strange to move to a new city and then have it locked down. But having access to the weather and the just beautiful scenery around here was pretty great.

37:45

Well, I for one, I’m thankful that things are starting to open back up in travels picking back up and you’re sitting on a beach now sitting on a beach, face to face interactions are back. Okay, moving back on. What is the best piece of advice you’ve either given or received? All of a sudden all the great advice people have given me it’s just flown out my head. What is a relatively new formed habit a lot of people’s haven’t seen used throughout the last however many months. Is there anything that stands out I finally have a garden that I haven’t killed yet. So that’s new. That helps. A little little home garden Yeah, to keep some free fresh produce and tomatoes and zucchini is gone. It’s great. If you could write a book or in LA you had a billboard

38:33

or what was the billboard saying? What was your man I wish you asked me it’s like three days ago I had a very good book title the other day probably something like come to my house for dinner.

38:42

Why don’t you got Italian roots I do. Recently Italian dinners I’m sure are a big piece of of your your upbringing. I get that.

38:53

What is the best thing you bought in the last year under $100?

38:59

My hummingbird feeder.

39:01

Love it.

39:03

sit and watch hummingbirds while you’re tending the garden. Exactly.

39:08

Are you a music lover? Do you have a favorite artist or musician?

39:13

I don’t have a singular one. I do like music. Right now what’s currently kind of on repeat is I go through phases with music so there’s not like one set, but one that’s pretty constantly in rotation is 0707.

39:29

Okay, and favorite food. Oh gosh, you can’t ask an Italian that. Are you crazy? There’s different types of Italian food. What stands out?

39:39

I mean my my go to is usually I mean if I have to pick a go to it’s pasta.

39:44

For sure. Do you have a favorite type? Do you like a more dense like? depends on my mood. I do a strand of spaghetti. I do really like Biggs Ed. Okay.

39:58

Let’s see what you give me any pasta with cheese on it.

40:00

I’m so I’ll make you big CD.

40:02

Love it.

40:04

Awesome. Well, Gina, what else stands out that we haven’t talked about that you think is interesting that you do every day or that

40:13

that’s gotten you to where you are today. I think remembering your audience, you know, with for us especially,

40:20

we are known around the world, you know, we’ve had people in countries all over the world, who Oh, I love discovery, it’s my favorite. And that is I take that very seriously. And well, we all sit in meetings. And we have a very similar day to day that I’m sure that a lot of your listeners do, where there’s Zoo meetings, and calendars and schedules and emails, and all of that stuff. Where our content goes is around the world and constantly remembering that that we are doing this for such a large audience and that there is a level of authentic authenticity that needs to happen at a level of respect to the creative that needs to happen. And it forces you to be on your A game all the time, because you know, people are going to see it and you want to give them the best that you possibly can. I love that well from one storyteller to another that I couldn’t agree with you more on that. I think that

41:10

too many times. People want to think more about their brand and they do their audience. And I think the most important thing I try to communicate all the time is we almost have to forget about the brand. The brand has to be true to itself. You have to communicate the story in a way that makes sense to the brand. But if you’re not connecting with that audience, none of it.

41:30

Well, Gina, thanks. Thanks, Nate. Always a pleasure to chat. Happy to be here on the beach with you. That’s right. What we’re gonna do now is play 20 minutes of wave sounds tough time falling asleep. Welcome to your meditation.

41:45

All right. Thanks, Gina. Thanks, Nate.

41:49

If you like this episode of titans of industry, head to content titan.co slash podcast for more episodes or subscribe on your favorite podcasting app. And if you know of an industry Titan that’s doing amazing things. Let us know on social media or through our website so we can tell their story. Thanks for listening

00:00

But we had to clear out a real dumpster for him to stand inside this thing that I was doing that I guess who is going to be the guy who was ready to throw him in the downstairs into there I am standing in this dumpster. And for me that my why was so strong I I so desperately wanted to be there. Like the reason for me being on that set was still so incredibly real for me and tangible for me that I did it with a smile on my face.

00:30

Hey, it’s Nate Disarro and welcome to titans of industry, the podcast where I talk to industry leaders and innovators who are at the top of their game and leading the pack in their fields uncovering some of the best stories in today’s business landscape. In today’s episode, I sit down with Dwayne Logan, freelance filmmaker and director based in Nashville who has a passion for sharing the human experience through film. Dwayne a Chicago native talks about how his journey to becoming a film director had an unconventional path as he intended to get to Los Angeles, but had a detour through Nashville and never left. he recounts the events and experiences that drove him to create his first short film, black thoughts and how he values each and every person that plays a part in his creative endeavors. we dive into the realities of film production and talk about the importance of hard work and having the right connections to grow your career. Now, on a personal note, Dwayne is one of the most humble people I’ve ever met. So don’t let his humility take away from his creative genius and desire to make the world a better place.

01:32

Now, let’s get to the episode.

01:36

But before we do, our team at content Titan wants you to know that we understand the challenges business leaders and marketers are facing right now, with moving to a more virtual world. We are experts in taking human connections and turning them digital. From virtual Events and Video presentations to promotional content and advertising. We’re here to help guide you through the process of staying in front of your audience and making your life a little bit easier. People tell us all the time that they are lost and don’t know what to say or do and we exist to help your business continue to move forward, virtually. So if you’re ready to take your business and content strategy, virtual, we’re ready to help. Let’s get your business back to business.

02:20

Now, here’s my conversation with Dwayne Logan.

02:25

Dwayne, thanks for jumping on the podcast with us really appreciate it. Looking forward to this time.

02:30

I have heard some amazing things about you. We’ve had a little bit of a pre conversation. So excited to jump in and go a little deeper here. But I want to start just a little quick overview. Tell me how you ended up sitting in the chair you’re in right now in Mount Juliet, Tennessee. Oh, man, Nate, thanks so much for having me excited to be here. Certainly an honor.

02:53

I’m a freelance filmmaker, Director slash ad.

02:58

And it’s been it’s been one heck of a heck of a ride getting to this point. And

03:05

the short end of it is, man, I had some very, very strong reasons that made me think that I could use the art of filmmaking to make a difference. And to grant after that full, full speed.

03:18

A little bit. We’ll talk to me about kind of how you got into filmmaking. How did you decide that this was a artistic expression that you wanted to use? What was what was your kind of impetus for becoming a an artist in this way?

03:32

Man, yeah, if you ask my mother and she’ll tell you that it was all genetics that are came from her like I’m an artist, your grandmother who was an artist, and now you’re destined to be the artist.

03:44

The man is one of the one of the six kids who grew up interstate Chicago and

03:51

out of the six, I think I kind of became the the shoulder to cry on a bit sometimes within the house. And then it turned into a similar thing outside of the house with friends. And as I got older,

04:07

and going into school, I became just kind of the listening year, eventually,

04:13

jump jumped over into I was snatched up by this really incredible teacher in high school that that saw me and said, You need to be on the gymnastics team. And she forced me into into that sport. And that support gave birth to me becoming a coach for USA Gymnastics and all of that, that listening very quickly became mentoring with a lot of athletes and

04:38

may just started to realize that

04:42

in these conversations, we’re having so much progress with some of these kids that were really in distressed situations at home. And you wonder how can I do this on a bigger scale? Like how could we have these meaningful conversations with more people at once and

05:00

You realize that kids aren’t listening to parents it’s so much is as they are their favorite musician. They’re not listening to teachers as much as they, they follow their favorite actor or actress and this was prior to Instagram and Snapchat and tik tok and Twitter.

05:19

Certainly more so the case now, but I looked at that and kind of had this really, really strong feeling that, okay, that’s

05:28

if really at the heart of coaching. For me, it’s about seeing these kids succeed. And maybe the goal in life is to just see these kids and see people succeed, and to make a difference with that. And so my wife and I sold everything we owned, thought we were headed to LA and somehow landed the National

05:49

Gallery there, but it was certainly not an expected detour. Yeah, that’s quite the detour from Chicago, especially it’s kind of the wrong way.

05:59

So give me a quick version. How did you end up in Nashville? When you when you were planning on going to LA,

06:07

my wife and I were looking

06:10

at trying to find a roommate in the LA area. And because the cost of living was just so high, it just seemed to make sense to go that route. And we just could not find anyone that was willing to take a married couple for some strange reason. It was like, oh, if it’s just a dude, you can hang with us, dude, you’re just the ladies you can hang with this ladies. But you married couples, no thanks to my brother just had a baby. And we said, well, let’s go to Nashville and visit

06:40

love on that little one and figure out what in the world we’re going to do. Because at the time, we had all of our belongings packed into our vehicle, and we sold most of what we had kept the bare minimum.

06:55

And once we got here, my sister just continued to please like check Nashville, you can do this home thing and Nashville. Being from Chicago, I thought Nashville, it was just

07:07

pasture was with horses and cars. It’s like what I found Nashville. I don’t know that that exists. And I’m sure now if we,

07:17

you know, we just were eliminating options. In some cases, options were being eliminated for us. And so decided to take a look and threw on a suit and tie and printed out a few resumes and went and beat the streets. And was repeatedly told, no thanks. We don’t have anything here for you. Sorry, dry somewhere else. And found out that there was

07:44

a recording studio in town that had this world class setup.

07:50

And decided, hey, maybe I could maybe there’s something for me there. I went there and spoke to the person that answered the door and said, Oh, come back next week. And came back next week. And he’s like, we need to go on right away here. It’s like soul, this is it. This is gonna be it and talk to my wife’s like, I think this is this is what we were looking for. This is an opportunity to get hands on experience. And I’m one of the probably many people that believed Quentin Tarantino when he said, Forget film school, just get out there and get some hands on experience. So like, we’re going to do that.

08:26

We took cheese, probably 80% of our savings and had to dump them into an apartment, because we didn’t have jobs to prove income. So they went on to

08:38

almost a year’s worth of rent upfront, made that investment

08:43

and came back next week. And it was Oh, did you go next week, and just hang out today. We’ll get you next week. And the next week was the same story. And the next week was the same story. The next week was the same story and it never panned out. I never touched the camera never touched a piece of equipment.

09:01

And we looked up and we’re like well, we don’t have any money. And we better figure this out. And the short version of that we decided to try to take the one vehicle turn it into two we’re on a carmax parking lot and she’s on one end of the lot I was on the other and I have

09:21

a history of becoming a nerd by necessity.

09:25

This is one of those

09:27

Yeah, it’s like when you need it you got to learn it. And

09:32

the I just studying the market car market she’s like oh to 2006 Pontiac g six with 13,000 miles is like a

09:42

14 to she’s like you’re off by 200 bucks.

09:47

Like exporting boards and guys like you want a job segment and of course the car salesman and it’s like no, you’d be a buyer. you’d help us determine the value of the cars on the lot and you work in a buyers department. I got some

10:00

into that, and she went back to working she was at the time trying very hard to

10:06

rise through the ranks in Walgreens into the pharmaceutical department.

10:14

And she started out in the photo lab and cashier and before you know that at the time, you didn’t have to go to school, to get the certificate to be a pharmacy technician, you could do it, you could you Walgreens would pay for the training. So she jumped back into that, and it was working really hard. And I figured I’d make my contribution by joining the ranks at karma x at the

10:39

passport man about three months of opening up cars and Tennessee summers to try the option out what was inside them, you get hit in the face with that key over and over and over again, you’re trying to take pictures like this is crazy, we did not sell everything that we own to be sweating with cicadas and

11:01

crazy, crazy cars on carmax slide. And so I got really serious again, it’s like it’s there, I’m going to find it and found out about the 48 hour Film Festival

11:13

went to the meet and greet for for that.

11:18

And at the time I put myself through an online version of phone schools, every bit of information that I could find that was just consuming it stacks of note cards all over the place and, and print out some books that were made free on mine, I was just consuming information as fast as I could I

11:36

thought that would have been an opportunity to apply some of it’s like if I could just see these cameras that I’ve been reading about. And if I can just touch one of these boom poles, it just gave me a shot.

11:48

And the organizers wife came in she’s got boxes in her hand. So he’s dropping things left and right. And I asked them, hey, do you need a hand? And she’s like, No, no, no, no, we’re fine. We’re fine. We’re fine. She goes back out to the car, she comes back in and I grab a box and she’s like, then three more in the trunk. And Come on, come on back.

12:08

In she’s like, you know what I like you, I’m going to introduce you to my husband. Her husband was a gaffer in town, Jeff Gordon, who was just so incredibly gracious,

12:22

and allowed a conversation and I just, I probably hit him with

12:28

that sort of a feeling that a dad gets when he comes home after his kids had a really exciting days like and you know, and then and there was this and then this, what about this? What about that? What about is a you know, you should meet Greg page, the owner of the studio. And so he introduced me to Greg page, Greg page. So you know, I don’t have any things that I can offer you opportunity wise, but you should know Jen at it. And so he bounced me over to Janet IV via email. And she needed some props built. She was taking Janet’s planet, her TV show on the road as a live production. It’s like I need some props built and really very great things and love this email that you sent me.

13:13

Can you can you help out with that. So it meant my father in law just gave me a toolbox. I’m not sure what’s in it, but I’ll be winging it and we’ll figure it out. And

13:23

I can’t even count how many hours of volunteering to build props and get get her set up and running.

13:32

And one day she said, You know you’ve done such a good job, you should show up to the live taping of some of the content that we’re going to have on one of the screens. And it was just like this is it, I finally get to see all the films that are loved by and on the day the all of the the crew members are setting up and things are going smoothly. And all of a sudden, they were like, oh boy, we week, we’ve our prompter.

13:56

Guy, the person who’s going to run the prompter is in here.

14:00

And what are we going to do? And I raised the hand said, Hey, I can give it a shot. And it’s like, No, you don’t understand like, this is a thing you can do. It’s like, well, I if if it comes to it, I’ll

14:13

happily jump in and figure it out. And

14:17

I forget who this young lady was she was like, let’s just put him in front of this laptop. And yeah, we’ve got to go, we got to shoot. And we start filming. And before you know that one of the lead actors stopped and he’s like, I just want to say is one of the smoothest teleprompter experience with other heads like yes.

14:39

Yes, yes. And so we continue on then a bit later in the day. There’s a moment where one of the guys wanted to tell a joke in sign language or something like that. And it just so happened to be within a very limited range of sign language that I knew and

14:55

helped him out with that. He’s like, make sure this guy’s on the next one. We like him.

15:00

Up until the end of the day two ACS came over and they said, Hey, I like what I saw today, I’m going to bounce your name over to this person and bounce yours to this one. And one of the names was Karen Martin, at the time when she was a producer in town, and the word was, you’ll get one shot. And if you do, well, you’re gonna, you’re gonna be alright, if you don’t do well, I hate to tell you, but you’re probably not working this town again. Oh, boy. And sure enough, about a week later, I got the call. And it was from Karen Martin. And it was to come out to a set and I asked Jeff, I said, What can I do? How can I be ready. And he gave me some good tips. And one of them was to learn the names of all of the people

15:46

above the line and what they do and what they’ve done. And then also understand what the DP what his record looks like. And so did that. And stayed up all night doing that.

15:59

And was late for my first shoot on set. Oh, man.

16:05

It was the worst case scenario. Yeah, it’s like the number one rule is don’t be late, you know, start times work time. There. I was late. And I got there on the day. And I was given a very hard time by some of the folks that were on that set. And I was like, hey, like, why don’t we have the guy that showed up late do that lock up and

16:25

wait to do this?

16:28

Man, I thought it was over as soon as it began.

16:33

But fast forward, there’s this opportunity to

16:38

they wanted to

16:40

part of the show the narrative was to figure out and crack these recipes, like these really famous recipes in the world. And this one was for Cinnabon. And so they The idea was the show host would be dumpster diving to try to find these secrets. But we had to clear out a real dumpster. For him to stand inside this thing. They’re like what what was doing that, I guess who is going to be the guy who was ready to throw him in the downstair into there I am standing in this dumpster. And for me that my why was so strong, right? I I so desperately wanted to be there. Like the reason for me being on that set was still so incredibly

17:21

real for me and tangible for me that I did it with a smile on my face. And Jeff snapped a photo of me standing in this dumpster and said Hooray for Hollywood

17:33

on the bottom of it, and pay for it just did. One of the gaffers came over to me. And she was so gracious and money and say, Hey, I love what I saw today. I’ve listened to everything I’ve said today, and I’ve listened to you. And some people try to kind of give you a bit of a tough time. And I’ve never met you. But I guarantee you, I’m going to see a lot more of you because I’m going to tell everybody that I know that you need to be on set. And it’s been that kind of experience in this town. Since the day that I got here. Honestly, there have been certainly a group of people that have tried very hard to make it difficult for me, but most memorable has been the group of people that went out of their way to make sure that that man, I just think I got every single opportunity that they could give me

18:23

and I blinked

18:25

and I was probably pa on set

18:30

on nothing but music videos and commercials and the long form content as pa I said probably about six days a week for about two and a half years straight.

18:42

It’s incredible. I mean, that kind of workload is really shows a testament to just who you are and kind of the amount of work you’re doing.

18:50

Nobody gets to do that on a freelance basis. It’s it really is like,

18:56

at least for me, it’s it felt miraculous to do that. I mean, normally if you’re, if you’re on maybe a feature film or something like that, you might want those kinds of days. But right short form, the short form it was, it was crazy. And the experience that I gained from that, especially with each project being so sure, to many different directors, so many different producers, so many different DVDs.

19:24

The ability to really look around and and and learn was incredible, especially since so many of those projects were happening with crews that were brought in from out of town so you got to experience in New York without having to be in New York, you got to experience la production without being in LA and it was is is a fun fun ride. That’s really cool man. I love that story. I think you know, there’s a lot that we could go into to dissect some of that especially for you know, young people up and coming in the industry. Really any industry that so

20:00

Has that that freelance base that that mentality of kind of, you’re only as good as your last job?

20:07

Which I remember when I first heard that in this industry, and I was like, wait, wait, what does that mean? You know, and then you realize, Oh, I better be good on this job, or else I won’t get the next one. And but you know, I’ve had the same experience in Nashville, anybody that I hire that does a good job. It’s amazing to see how quickly you know, people are looking for recommendations, people need somebody to, to work on their next shoot, and I’m like, oh, hire this guy, you know, he was great, or hire this girl, she did nothing but amazing things, things that I didn’t even ask her to do. And, you know, when you’re directing and producing a shoot, you’ve got to have those people at your at your side. You know, a lot of people I think that that may be listened to podcast and don’t know a ton about the film industry of production world. I mean, it is all about the people you surround yourself with on whether or not that is going to be a

21:00

good production, and you’re going to get the things that you need at the end of it. You know, to your point, smooth teleprompter is a big deal. You know, to jump in there day one and knock that thing out. That’s, that’s pretty fun. So, alright, fast forward, you get into the ad roll, which, for anybody that doesn’t know what an ad is assistant director, basically, for simplification terms, it’s the it’s the director of operations on a shoot, you’re the person that kind of directs traffic, make sure the next thing is ready to go. You’re getting people where they need to be. So how did you fall into that role? And what did that look like? Kind of early on and in the ad days? Oh, man, the The first time I really started to comprehend what an ad

21:46

what his role was, we were on the shoot. And then we had cars and they were those pyrotechnics. And they were all these moving parts. And I said to myself very clearly I never ever want to be that guy.

22:00

is hilarious. Because

22:02

shoot after shoot,

22:05

I had a DS that eventually got to a point where they said, I won’t take a job unless this guy’s with me. And

22:15

I’m still flabbergasted by that, that any professional in any business would say, hey, if you want me You have to bring in this guy as well. So that’s crazy, especially for someone to be an entry level employee to say, hey, I need this PA, like if I’m on set, and this pa has to be there with me. So you got essentially a guy that’s at the top end of the food chain saying I need someone that’s at the bottom of the food chain, if you want me to be there. And so that was really remarkable. And eventually that turned into

22:50

this,

22:52

this wonderful thing that would happen if the shoots grew beyond their intended scope, where the ABS would say, hey, you need somebody to go and run that second unit, send Dwayne Dwayne over there and do this like Oh, man, are you sure as I get over there? Yeah, you you know exactly what this this is supposed to look like because the ever call

23:13

pa is giving me a hard time when the leads will come across the walkie when they needed to update and it went from hay production or Hey, pa is that hey, Dwayne, hey, Dwayne, Dwayne, Dwayne, come on.

23:29

Man, I’m just, I’m just trying to put my head down and work hard. That’s That’s all I care about. I

23:35

remember being teased about having just this massive.

23:41

It’s like a tool belt turned into a fanny pack with his big binder and folder on it, all these things hanging off of it, because I just thought I should be ready for just about anything. And it was,

23:53

yeah, after lunch when the directors like, like, my breath smells terrible from those onions, there’s gum and this fanny pack, and it’s like, bragging, like, Alright, kid.

24:04

And when they say, hey, you’re going to go on a run, and this is we need this ASAP. And it’s gotta be just so there’s a notepad in there just to make sure that it’s written down to the tee.

24:16

And those the 80s forced me into Av. And I think I’m really grateful that it happened that way, because it happened with such an enormous amount of respect for the role.

24:28

And I certainly didn’t take any of it for granted.

24:32

But man, I blinked and it went from working as the volunteer volunteer ad on some of the second units to being the second second ad without the title without the pay. And then I get the title but not the pay and then you got to pay me title but by that time, I’d already been working as second ad without the title without the pay. And then before you know it, man, I turned around and I said, Oh my gosh, like this ad is asking me to do union shoots.

25:00

I’ve got to turn in this book to the unions in order to be able to do these union shoots, I’ve got enough days to do it. And so you turn in that book.

25:08

And then I’m working as a union second ad. But then I’m also starting to first ad things. By recommendation of other atheists. They’re like, I can’t take this job. In Blaine Logan, a call.

25:23

And so it really was, is this wonderful thing that happened were very,

25:29

without reaching for this position or that title. And in trying to kind of battle my way to it.

25:39

There’s, there’s kind of a passing of a torch. And that happened. And I’m still so grateful that it happened that way, especially in a small town in a small community where, where they certainly could have been a lot of ruffled feathers.

25:52

I love that. Well, so man, again, I can talk about forever, because I just didn’t know what you’re saying makes me think of all the people on set that I’ve had that I’m just like, you’re ready, go run that unit, or go do this or go do that. And I think the the mentality that goes into what it takes to make that climb, and so quickly, and be trusted by so many people, and this goes really for any industry, right? I mean, in our world, it’s it’s the world of film and production. But

26:24

in any industry, if you’ve got somebody that you can trust, regardless of their skill and experience level, you just know, they’re going to figure out how to get the job done.

26:32

And they’re gonna hustle, and they’re not going to sit back. And you know, they may have imperfections, they may show up late on the first day, but they quickly make up for it, you know, and,

26:44

but, but all that experience that you gain so quickly, and just from being a part of so many projects ultimately led you to kind of where you’re at now, what you’re doing now. And essentially, you’re a director. But you’re so much more than that. You’re doing so many cool things. I want to save us time to get into some of that. But why don’t you talk to me about this, this short film that that you concepted created put out in the world and where it’s what it’s doing. Yeah, man you saw, right, because there’s just so many things there, like in the ad or other would be so fascinating to kind of dive into

27:24

the death of Mr. Berry, hit me like a ton of bricks.

27:33

I just

27:35

I felt as though, I mean, I don’t sleep as it is, but I just I was restless, and, and really, really felt like I had to say something, I had to do something I had to use whatever skills or talent that I had to try to make a difference and went back to the guys that evolved into Hey,

27:56

I’ve got to make this feat. I just have to I don’t know how but I’ve got to make this piece and and they came back and said Dwayne, we were with you. Maybe we can scale down we could remove a scene here a scene there.

28:10

As they go, man, I don’t I don’t know what that looks like how God how can I remove a scene here a scene there because each scene is so pertinent to what’s being seen in the world right now. And, and they spoke and came back and said, Hey, man, listen, let’s let’s do this. Let’s, if you want to, if you want to, if this is what really, really, really just one of those things where you’re just you’re gonna explode, let’s do it, let’s figure out a way to do it. And by that time, I had a moment of clarity where it’s just like playing, it’s a pandemic, like, these guys probably don’t even know if they’re going to be to keep their doors open.

28:49

Have a conversation that’s a little bit more mindful. So I returned with an apology. It’s like, I’m so sorry, I was short sighted. I was in this mode where I just wanted to put a bandaid on the world or heal it or hold it or hug it or something to help.

29:06

And I overlooked the logistics of what it means to bring a film to life. And I said No, man, don’t worry. But out of that conversation, and came this this request to Hey, if if I can have a week, and if you guys are now in this position where it’s like, hey, let’s do something. Can I have a week to just go into a closet and think about maybe another way to talk about what’s happening? And said do you take all the time you need and came back with

29:36

the script, which would have at the time only been about a five or 10 minute read for what is now a black thoughts, a 30 minute short film. And they both were excited about it. And there’s another fantastic human over there. Daniel, who was also really excited about it, and it was a part of these conversations and they were like, let’s do it. And a couple of days will go by and I say hey

30:00

guys sorry, is a little bit longer, that’s fine as I go back and delete a bit longer because I feel like we’re going there, we got to go there.

30:11

And it grew and it grew and it grew. And,

30:15

man, now it’s, it is out in into the world, and it’s making its round, it’s making an impact, and it’s starting conversations and is doing so much more than I could have ever imagined that it would have done. And

30:28

I had an opportunity to direct a couple of commercials with these guys prior to black dots. But this is my first short film,

30:38

ever into existence. And, and so happy that that is the project that that I was able to start with, because I feel like it sets the groundwork for anything that I’d like to say, as a director from here for man, I

30:53

in a different way. You know, I think in a lot of ways, we all by human nature, we’re all the same, but we’re all different, right? Like we all have the same feelings, the same urges the same things that sort of control different pieces of what we can and can’t do. And one of the things we can’t do is when we’re so compelled by something, we can’t sit still we can’t sleep, we can’t let that thing just died. Because it’s it’s too big. And we realize there’s there’s some element of life that’s bigger than us. And we have to take action towards it.

31:27

I felt that in my own way. It’s it’s completely different than the way you felt that but I know everybody that and at some point in life, you realize, this is my thing, this is the thing that if if this is my Hill to die on this, this is it. I’m here. And

31:45

it sounds like this was that moment for you, like you, you couldn’t let this go by you couldn’t sit back and say, Well, you know what, we’ll get to this eventually, we’ll, I’ll go to sleep tonight, I’ll wake up tomorrow. And it’s gonna be a new day. And I can focus on other things, but but it kept consuming you is what it sounds like. And absolutely, and it’s so perfectly articulated there it was 100%, the hill that I would just is like,

32:12

if I don’t accomplish anything else in this world, I’ve got to climb this hill and get this thing down.

32:19

And it was, especially because the peace was in so many ways.

32:26

A piece that would address

32:29

my life as a whole.

32:31

In the past and in what also speak to my life in the future. It really, it’s a piece that spans what’s taken

32:43

more than three decades almost for now, figuring out how old I am, it took all these years to make me the man that I am and to

32:56

really make me very passionate about some of the things that I’m very passionate about.

33:02

And had we had we made this piece a year prior I think I would have still, I felt very, very passionate about getting it into the world. But man, in the middle of 2020 it was

33:20

totally one of those things where it’s like if I don’t do this now, but if today does does not become the day, I just I don’t know how I will continue to exist as a human it must come out of my mind and out of my heart and into existence and was so incredibly grateful and fortunate to to have these guys and sure enough, they were in a position where they were wondering, are we going to be able to keep the doors open, I had no idea. And for them to I think it turned into one of those moments of combining of apart and I love Joel’s way of saying he said Dwayne, you know, what we need to do on this one is we just we just need to be gasoline and like because you’re just like this burn and fire we’re just gonna keep throwing gas on it however we can and if that’s like, you know, we’ve got cameras we can throw, then we’ll throw the cameras out and we can recruit it it with throw the creative, but we just need to get continue to pour gas on this fire man because you’re just you just, you’re there and we need to defeat and so really, really fortunate. So, you you mentioned earlier, you know the elements of social justice that we’re important and we’ve teased this idea of this short film black dots give give me the the synopsis what are we talking about here? And of course, we want to encourage people to be able to take a look at it. But But why was their motivation to write this and get this out to the world and essentially what is what are we talking about?

34:51

The so by thoughts is a short film that

34:56

as I looked around the the United States

35:00

What was happening and listening to conversations that people were having?

35:05

concerning like the topics of racism and

35:11

social justice and police reform and Jay Z get into so many of these other buzz terms like

35:20

white privilege and things like that. And it’s like mandates so many of these conversations are

35:27

non productive, they’re unproductive because people get hung up on terms or because the context isn’t there to really have some of these conversations that are very important.

35:38

On one hand, you see the killing of a of an unarmed man in the street. And something that should be very easy to converse about on a just a human level becomes incredibly complicated because politics jump in and, and personal histories jumping in a war grandpa taught me this. And so this is what I believe, and this is how I feel, or my brother is an officer. And this is how I feel, or I’m just a black man, and I want to support another black man. And this is how I feel. And it was like, there’s so much dissension, and there’s so much

36:13

separate separation, and there’s, there’s so many roadblocks to productive conversation that could actually bring us together and help solve some of these problems.

36:26

And seeing that, from my perspective,

36:30

that I been given a, I think, is a unique opportunity to to hear a lot of different sides of those conversations. My wife is from Wapakoneta, Ohio,

36:42

and a very small town, very conservative town, very red town, my family being from Chicago.

36:54

Also conservative people, but more blue leaning in a lot of ways, because that’s what you’re supposed to do, because you’re got brown skin, so you vote blue.

37:06

And then being a coach in the world of gymnastics, also then seeing a different side of conversation, because now it’s not so much about red or blue. It’s about wealthy versus poor. You hear some of the conversations that just very wealthy people are having, then you jump into the film business and you hear

37:29

conversations being had with not just wealthy people, but very liberal, wealthy people. And it’s like, all these worlds coming together. And they’re all saying in so many ways, some of the same things, but

37:41

throw these hangups and hiccups. And so I made this film as a way to, hopefully a

37:49

I’m such a firm believer that the past is prologue that we cannot comprehend the present or the future without an understanding of how we got here.

38:00

Until wanted to make something that touched on that, how did we get here today? And why are we seeing what we’re seeing, but also wanted to make something that

38:14

was was going to come from this standpoint, not of not from a political side, not from a religious side, but from a human decide of humanity. And so really wanted to just humanize

38:32

some of these, these really difficult things, and I couldn’t find a better way to do it than to just make myself really vulnerable. And so it’s the title blackfox. These are the inner thoughts that I would encounter from a day to day basis. And as I look out my front window, and as I go to work, and I hear what’s being said, and I have conversations, these are the ways that I interpret those things. And ideally,

39:03

the goal was to, to start conversations about some of these things that could potentially then come from a place of saying, Hey,

39:13

I heard the heart of the man on this, versus immediately arriving at the table with any preconceived notions, I heard the heart of a man of a hippo, the human soul. I saw that perspective. And now we can converse regarding that perspective.

39:31

Too lofty goal, it’s making the assumption that

39:36

people can change and having hope in humanity.

39:40

It’s making the the really, really, really intensely

39:47

hopeful leap into thinking that

39:52

things that evils that have been around in this country for hundreds and hundreds of years can can be undone, but it’s

40:00

making a dent.

40:01

That’s really cool, man. I mean,

40:04

you’re right, there’s so much that, that we want to accomplish through the work we put out and change and creating hope those are, those are big, huge, lofty goals. And I think one of the hardest things to comprehend with that is, is that

40:23

we can create something and ultimately, it can be an agent for change. But people on the other end have to be recipient in a way that they’re willing to change. You know, because, I mean, you give somebody a paintbrush and say, change this canvas, they have to be willing to do it, they have to be willing to dip the paint

40:44

on the brush, and paint a new picture. And you’ve you’ve given them the tools to change to think through to move to I mean, it’s such a beautifully shot. piece.

40:58

It’s very clean. I love that about it. But it does give give me the viewer this this insight that I’m inside your head, you know that that kind of I’m there, just the way you visually created it

41:13

was that the goal going into it was to kind of give it this mentality of I want the viewer to be inside my head, I want these these black thoughts to be this is what the viewer seeing it’s, it’s, it’s the inside of me? or What was your kind of mindset going into setting this thing up visually? And then conversely, how did you pull this thing together? I mean, you kind of set us up on how it came together. But did you know who you were going to bring in to help you pull this thing off? Did you know you were going to be such an integral part of this somebody who doesn’t want to be necessarily known or put out there in the world? Man? Yeah, that was a, I think the part of how

41:54

logistically it was going to fall together. I think there’s a lot of the experiences and ad that that kind of kicked into gear once we realized that it would be difficult to shoot during COVID. And that experience, I think, very naturally became a part of the writing process of saying, hey, how could we do this in an impactful way, but in a logistically feasible way.

42:18

And there’s certainly a part of it that was just strictly about practicality to remove very dollars and cents standpoint, how can we achieve the desired goal

42:31

with the resources that we have.

42:34

But then also the idea.

42:38

I’m really happy that the core idea was really, really clear, which is, we’ve got to essentially, and you hate to even mention it but at the root of a lot of what drives racism is this idea that some people are less human than others.

43:01

And then you could really start to dive into

43:05

the impact of eugenics on the way that we think in this country and the all these four sciences that were brought about to say that okay, well black people don’t feel pain in the same way and they have lower IQ than they really are just property it’s you’ve got a cow over there, you got a horse over there, you have a cow and that cow, you have a black man to pick this you have a black woman to nurse your kids that there’s this idea that we were just things to think the one of the initial aims was to say, Can we can i re humanize? The black man, the black woman, the black child, in this conversation, and from the standpoint of re humanizing Zin offer some context about how we got here.

43:55

It just screamed that the best way to do that would be to say, hey, well, here is the heart of of a man and I’ll allow it to be mine. And,

44:05

man, some conversations with my wife were like,

44:09

you know, like, once you do that, there’s no there’s no, you can’t go back from that. Like once you put yourself out there that you there’s there’s no turning around and saying, Oh, well, I like to close this door. Now you guys jumped into my life and into my heart into things that I care very much about. But no thanks. You can leave now. Like once it’s open it open. But we felt like that was a The best way to do that. Is to say like, okay, here, here it is. I mean,

44:38

the concept is very much at home, not only from that the logistics and practicality standpoint and saying, Hey, we can do this on a budget, but it was at home creatively because it’s like, let’s strip away all the things that that potentially distract from that that would distract you from being able to say, Hey, this is what I’m focused on.

45:00

Focus on the human heart on the words and on the content. I love it well, and the cool thing about it to me, and I don’t know what conversations you’ve had around it, since its released, and I know you’ve mentioned it’s making a film festival circuit.

45:14

But it’s it’s, it almost goes beyond film, right this is this is almost something that could be a live performance. This is something that can be done in different forms of of theatrical ways. I think you’ve done a fantastic job of making people literally just see the inside of a human’s head and say, hang on, forget everything I’ve known before. Because there’s truth in this, there’s reality in this and you can’t deny it. Well, one things we talk about a lot on this podcast is this idea of doing business better. And you know, I think the pandemics taught us a lot about how we have to do business, how we have to conduct business in a lot of ways. But when you think about all your experiences, and all the sets, you’ve been on all the projects, you’ve worked with all the people you’ve worked with, what stands out to you about ways that that you’re trying to do business better, or that the industry as a whole is trying to do business better?

46:12

And the other great question the the film industry as a whole, I don’t think has a great reputation for putting people first

46:23

as it is, especially at least in my experience.

46:28

In my experience, the film industry is about get the shot, get the project and get it at all costs.

46:35

And I think that’s how we end up with stories. Like, you know, the what happened to Sarah Jones, and you know, the poor young lady that lost their Lifeline on a film set, because they just had to get the shot on a set of railroad tracks.

46:51

And one of the things that I’m really, really passionate about is making sure that when crew members show up on onset that a bit know that they’re very valued that, hey, you being here makes a difference to makes an impact, you have worth you have value.

47:09

And also being able to to make sure that they know that they’re going to that there’s someone that is an advocate for them.

47:19

From a safety standpoint, from a pay standpoint, okay, when you show up here, we’re not trying to get as much of you for as little as possible, we want to make sure that hey, you know that you have worth and that that’s not just in words, but it can be Indeed,

47:38

we can pay you what you should be paid. I mean, all of those things really, really important to me. And that’s why it’s difficult for me to just jump in at the first opportunity when someone says, hey, yeah, let’s work together. So how do you treat people? And what is your reputation for treating people? And how does that then reflect on me? Because that’s at the forefront of what I care about. And if there’s a compromise there, and maybe this doesn’t work out so great.

48:07

And I wish that that was a more widespread feeling, because, man, I just I had the hardest time especially

48:17

right in the middle of

48:21

transitioning from a non union to Union ad and being able to work both have having to negotiate with rate. And before you know, it’s like okay, well producer calls, and they’re like, hey, what can you do this shoot, you know, it’s, we work together a lot, and we don’t have the money. And so you drop the rate for that. And then they call again, and the rate drops a bit more. Now the rate that you dropped two becomes the new rate. And the rate that you drop to after that becomes the new rate. And it’s just like, every time you pick up the phone, you feel like you’re being nickeled and dimed to death. And you feel like the you have to fight to convey to the people that that are calling you, I have value, I can bring value to the set, you called me for a reason. Let’s have that value reflected and always possible. And so really, really desperately want to make sure that that’s something that I’m known for in this business and starting out. It’s very hard to do that because there’s some of these projects like black thoughts. We didn’t have the money or the budget, but I think it was on us to make sure that we conveyed that to the crew members like hey, this is this is what this weird animal is and this is what you’re signing up for. And God help me please like that. Don’t let this come across is like one of those crazy phone calls was like what’s the pay experience and pizzas like

49:46

be that guy. When you try to communicate in a way to where people know like, hey, the this is certainly not going to be the norm for experiences working with with Dwayne Logan

50:00

Well, and I think, you know, cuz I’ll jump on the bandwagon with you of providing value to the crew and making sure that, you know, we’re never trying to nickel and dime anybody. It’s not about that. But, you know, I do think there’s, there’s passion projects that, you know, do they take a little money to make happen? Sure, but is the bigger objective to be beyond just this is your day job, you know, this is your day rate, this is you know, so I think there’s, there’s always the opportunity for people to have that chance to buy into a project and say, I’m willing to do this for next to nothing, I’m willing to, you know, kind of provide the sweat equity, to see the same get done. And that’s a choice that any crew member can make, you know, from the top down. But then there’s your, of course, your your day job, there’s your, we’re going out to shoot this for a client, and

50:51

to your point, this was my rate, then it came down here, then it came down here, and that becomes the norm. And I think, you know, I’ll go on the record saying that it gets very difficult to perform your duties when you constantly get pushed down on rate, and whether that’s the whole production, or whether that’s, you’ve got to have another crew member, and you don’t have the budget for so you got to just ask one person to drop, they’re like, no matter what part of the puzzle it is, that becomes very difficult to do more than once more than twice, you know, I think everybody’s willing to give a little bit. But you’re asking me to give a little bit every single time you’re devaluing, you’re showing that I’m not worth what I bring to the table. And, you know, I remember shoot specifically when I was a production manager way back in the day that we had to move about six cars to get this sunset shot, because these cars were in the background. And I mean, we couldn’t get a move fast enough before the light was going to go away. And so we had some pa is trying to move them and they weren’t moving fast enough. And you know, I’m taking off running down this hill, grabbing keys on the way and just start moving these cars because we got to go.

52:01

And when you’re asking somebody to cut their rate from this to this, you’re asking for me to not care enough for me to not give that effort, you know what I mean? So

52:13

it takes a special person to give that effort time and time again, and everybody else is gonna just quit, they’re gonna say, I’m not gonna do this shoot for that amount. And so there’s there’s my rant for it, but I’m certainly right there with you that, you know, is it all about money? No. But is it all about value? Yes. Like, don’t devalue me enough times.

52:34

I love that so much and unsexual real part of his business as a whole, I’ve never met a person that’s gonna work hard and give you 110% when they feel like they have no value, you ideally want for crew members to be there, because they have a reason to be there, I want to be here, I want to run down that hill with those keys to help get the shot. And, and to me, I just, I’m so passionate about that. And I feel like as an ad, I’ve tried really, really hard to make that the reputation that hey, like if I if I see Dwayne’s name on a call sheet, and then this guy’s going to bat for me one way or another, that I’m in good company, and this is going to be a crew oriented, shooting that together, we’re all going to be able to come and knock this thing out. And the very fascinating side of that is sometimes you you become such an advocate that especially as an ad, you start to hear all sorts of things that just

53:30

a way we’re running out of, we’re running out of Gatorade over is like that is so not a big responsibility. But you could come to me with whatever whatever is on your heart at the moment. Or god help is doing we’ve got to push these cards through through this gravel. It’s like I wish I could change the shape of the earth that we have trucks on but is as it is, but then I love that that’s where it is, you know that the crew members, they all feel like, hey, if I’m in it, Dwayne’s in it with me, I just love that example you gave the bike, I’ll go get those keys.

54:07

And that’s doing that’s doing good business does that’s doing the kind of business that I want to be a part of, and I want people to be excited when they see the phone ring, and then it’s got anything to do with my name on it.

54:20

And it’s really hard to

54:24

to work backwards from having the opposite of that reputation is I mean, it’s possible. But man Good luck. You know, once you were known for that person that’s going to beat the Korean to the ground that’s going to take more than you give. And, you know, just as well as their names that that go along with that that are synonymous with that.

54:47

And I don’t I don’t ever want it to be the thing or it’s like all you’re about to pull a logon it’s like

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it’s true. Well and my mentality is I’m never gonna ask anything anybody to do anything that

55:00

I’m not willing to do myself, you know, I think, is there a time and place for me to do those things versus the person we’ve hired on the shoot to do those things? Yeah, of course. Because, you know, at some point, I can’t be the one carrying all the sandbags because there’s other things that have to be done that only I know how to do. And it’s no disrespect to the person who has to carry sandbags. But that’s, that’s your job. That’s what you got to do. But I’m willing to do it with you. If it boils down to it, you know, and I think having that mentality really, regardless of the business you’re in, regardless of where you’re at in life, but you know, it’s it’s really that mindset of running as fast as you can look to your right and left who’s running with you, those are the people we want on the team, those are the people we want to try and keep up with. Because we know that they’re running hard, they’re not just freeloading, they’re not just feeling like they got to the top now they can coast.

55:49

And it’s so good, when you’re just saying that it made me think about something else, like that I’m really happy for was the experience of having worked in, in each department before becoming an ad. And then before becoming a director into the eye, you seen 1001 times, you know, some crazy person with a bullhorn jumps out on set, and it’s like, I need this and I need it. Now it’s like, but

56:14

if you know what you’re asking for, you know, it’s not coming anytime soon, because it’s gonna take them some time to do that. And it’s so grateful for the opportunity to learn and give when

56:26

someone’s having a fit. And they’re saying I need our department to, it seems so trivial, I just need them to put together that little shelf. And get that in here. Because we didn’t like this when we want to swap it out. And our department says, okay, it’s in a box, and you say you didn’t want it, but now you want to, we’re going to tell her to turn around and bring it back, we’re going to build it. You know, like having been there, you’re tinkering with those goofy little hex wrenches, and it’s like, they’re gonna go as fast as they can, is gonna be a second. And or, you know, like when they say, Hey, we just need I love the word just and I get thrown around, and it’s just a shiny board, we just need a shiny board over there, just get a shiny board over there. And you know, that thing weights and you know, what it feels like when it’s on your shoulder, you know, when that combo Stan is connected to it, what it’s like to care that thing, and then you look at the grass that that guy is going to track to really get it down to that it’s like, knowing and understanding what will the crew members are actually feeling and having some experience in those departments. And I mean, you can never know it all. But at least having enough to empathize with each of those departments i think is what what should be mandatory for any leader of any company have know what you’re asking for. And then when you ask for it a your appreciation for for when you get it is going to be so much more

57:46

the be like the the ability to have informed conversations and, and better expectations, when you’re asking for things, and just get all get ironed out so much better. And it really just shouldn’t be this mandatory thing for any leader, to have to have some level of understanding of who he’s eating and what he’s asking them to do.

58:06

I love it. And to I think the fact that you’re never too old to learn something new to jump in on something that you haven’t experienced, you know, if if you were able to get to a certain part in your company, or on film set, or whatever it is, and you didn’t ever have to have the experience, putting a shelf together or, you know, carrying a shiny board up a hill and through a creek and, you know, all the things that go along with that

58:31

doesn’t mean you can still do it and figure it out and understand it. And once you know now, you know when you ask somebody else for it, okay, I’ll be patient, I’ll give them a second to actually do it. You know, if you’re an accounting, you’ve made your way up into management, but never had to put a spreadsheet together well, maybe put a spreadsheet together. So when you ask that junior level accountant to give you these reports, you know what they’re asking for.

58:55

I love that so much might be a leader that listens, and be a leader that that is that people feel confident communicating to. Because if you’re this big, intimidating, fire breathing dragon, it’s like give me the spreadsheet, then you know, they’re not going to really give you the reality of what it takes the you know, the the intimidation factor is there and now the conversation can’t be had and, and there’s so much to be said about

59:21

being able to gain that experience through conversation with the people that you lead. I see so many correlations to coaching boils down to trust. I mean, ultimately, if you just earn the trust, and that’s the key word is earned the trust of the people that are working for you, then it shouldn’t be an issue, you know, then it shouldn’t be a matter of being manipulated or not knowing how to do something and worrying if you’re overpaying for it. Just be a human interacting with other humans create trust, and it’s all gonna work out. I want to jump into this real quick when we talk about how we got somewhere how we get to a place in life.

1:00:01

Most people now there are exceptions to the rule, but most people don’t get there just through their own determination and grit. That’s always a key element but 90% of the time there’s somebody else that they looked up to that they could lean on and and I refer to those people in our lives as Titans right? So who are some of the Titans in your life that kind of gave you that inspiration gave you those those moments of, I either want to be like that, or they helped guide me to this place. You have anybody like that in your life? Man, so many I love how you how you worry about that as well, because there’s

1:00:41

that I refer to it as this bootstraps. connotation, or the bootstraps idea that’s like a human just pull themselves up by the bootstraps. And then you know, hard work pays off. And you’ll get out there and get is that ended. There. I love Dr. King said, it’s, it’s cruel to tell a man to pull himself up by his boots when he doesn’t have any.

1:01:02

And there are some people that don’t, and really do just need someone to believe in them. And to see that they are willing to do the work, but they just need some assistance. I firmly believe that that really is how it all works, that at the end of the day, it takes a community one way or another. And there’s someone that that got a pause what they’re doing, and look outside of their bubble and see someone else and say, Hey, I’m going to get involved in that. Even if sometimes it’s for

1:01:33

less than pious reasons, but there’s there’s just this handshake that happens from human to human that really gets to go on. And I’ve had so many wonderful people like that in my life. The the first one that comes to mind is

1:01:49

the wonderful teacher, Mr. Meltzer, in high school that pushed me into gymnastics. And I think there’s so much of my life that I’ve been positively impacted by becoming a coach. And it was just one of the best things that ever happened to me, I went on and was given the opportunity to lead the P unit of gymnastics first full credit. And that introduced me to the men’s gymnastics team. Coach who then pulled me in and had me teach summer camps with him that introduced me to john and Judy Redmond, who are the next Titans that I think of in my life. They were

1:02:30

private owners of a USA Gymnastics club in in town, and they heard about me and said, Hey, we’re going to you’re, you’re coming along, whether you like it or not, we’re going to make a decent coach out of St. JOHN and Judy Redmond for certain, the more and more I think about it, and teachers and educators have had have been on both ends of the spectrum for me, they’ve been Titans for me, and they’ve created some of the most memorable paintings for me. And they’ve been on both ends of that.

1:03:00

And the ones that have made the positive impact, and I cannot stress enough, like the I just I hope that every teacher on the planet understands the potential that they have to change a life for the better for the worse. And for the ones that change mine for the better. I’m so grateful. God, I’m so grateful for the teacher that looked at some poetry that I wrote and said, this is really good. And when I brushed it off to notice that, listen, there’s something here you can write.

1:03:33

In here, I am now writing films. And I think about one of the pieces of feedback that I just received from the thumb festival is they go down this critique list and they say old cinematography,

1:03:48

zero to 10. Like, where do we put it in writing? Zero to 10? Where do we put it? And over and over and over again, the numbers for the writing were 10 910. And I was like, Oh, my God, it’s so incredibly humbling to see that. And I think back to the teacher that told me that that there was something there and man, just on that alone, I think about the more I think of it, the more Titans that pop up, and the more and the more you just want to be able to, as they say, give people their their flowers when they can still smell that makes me want to just kind of run outside and find them all and kiss him and hug him and say thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, love it. Well,

1:04:31

I think you’re exactly right. I think sometimes teachers themselves forget but I think a lot of people just forget the the impact, both positive and negative that teachers can have on our lives. And the reality is, we’re all teachers at times, you know, I think there’s formal paid teachers in certain environments, but like we’ve been talking about on film sets in different types of workplace environments.

1:04:57

Somebody’s always watching somebody is always there needing

1:05:00

encouragement, leadership, teaching. And we’ve got the impact or the opportunity to create the impact on that person very much the same way that a teacher does or a coach does with a young person in school. So that’s really cool that you’ve had those people. I want to move into a few quick questions. These are always kind of fun just rattling off the first thing that comes to mind.

1:05:24

Well, let’s start with your best or latest book that you’ve read.

1:05:28

Man, the, my favorite book, and probably the last one that I finished from ese was Jesus and the disinherited by Howard Thurman. And it’s he was the, the writer and speaker that inspired Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and just that that nugget alone made me really fascinated, interesting case, what is this guy? What does he have to say that would inspire sexual tremendous world leader, and it is me it is a it is a hammer of a book to walk to the heart ages, it leaves you It leaves an indelible mark that you’ll never get rid of.

1:06:06

of cool, what what’s a daily routine that you have to do? I feel like if the day goes by, and I’ve not created something, it’s going to be it’s going to be a tough day, there’s a, there’s a part of me that that feels a very, very necessary need to say I’ve made something they can, it can be the smallest thing, but it got to bring something out of an idea into reality. And if that’s

1:06:35

all around our house, there are different art forms that I love their paintings that use different mediums that I’ve created. There’s photography, sitting at a music studio as we speak, and the ability to sketch and to draw or to write, but it’s if if the day goes by and I’ve not created, it’s it’s not a great day.

1:06:59

I feel you on that. What’s the best piece of advice you’ve ever been given or that you’ve ever given or received? Whoa, man, there’s so much there. It’s it’s one that’s almost contradictory to my beliefs. But it’s, it’s, it’s been so helpful.

1:07:18

And I believe it’s Maya Angelou that said, is if someone shows you who they are, believe them.

1:07:26

And it’s contradictory in a way, because I’m very much a believer that people can change.

1:07:32

But understanding that for the most part, humanity is yet we’re very stubborn creatures. And

1:07:43

we certainly don’t make adjustments easily. And usually it takes tremendous pain or some sort of life altering

1:07:52

encounter to change it. So

1:07:56

I spent a lot of time in my being very naive, very trusting very

1:08:03

think the best of people first and find out the rest later. And I still am in many ways, but

1:08:10

I love that quote, because there’s so much truth in it that if they show you who they are, believe them for the better for the worst. It’s true. All right, if you could write a book, what would the title be? Or if you had a billboard out on the highway, what would your message be? Add a billboard is another quote that comes to mind.

1:08:32

And it says that people catch an opinion as one catches measles, which is by contagion.

1:08:38

And to be mindful of, of that, in in our efforts to

1:08:47

try to carve out what’s true and what’s not.

1:08:51

And reminding us that the

1:08:55

all of the things that that we think we know, to question them and to really do the hard work of getting to the bottom of what it is that we believe in why we believe it.

1:09:06

And to never stop that self examination of how we came to some of the conclusions that we’ve come to.

1:09:13

And that would probably be the Billboard and just a nice reminder there that just so we know that we stay aware that

1:09:23

people catch an opinion usually based on the environment around

1:09:29

a lot. So true.

1:09:32

I like this or what’s the best thing you’ve bought in the last year for $100 or less.

1:09:38

Oh man, I’m such a sneaker junkie like the first thing that popped in my head is just shoe shoe shoes. I bought a really great pair of shoes where I got a score and they weren’t that expensive. They were probably underneath 100 those are not great investments.

1:09:56

Easily The first thing that just jumped into my head is just this crazy.

1:10:00

sneaker collection I’ve got him from Chicago it’s in the bloodstream

1:10:05

love it favorite artist or type of music I am

1:10:09

I am a sucker for a female voice in acapella I just did is I will scour the internet to find some lovely soul that is ditch the piano and all of the instrumentation and is just a let allowing the the instrument that is the human voice out there for people to hear.

1:10:36

And then I think I’m also

1:10:39

a huge fan of

1:10:42

drum lines I just got into something so, so cool about hearing like a really really great drum line. And as a as a dancer, my wife’s a dancer.

1:10:54

Anything that gets a gets the thing joints move in. I’m a big fan of that as well. Yeah, we have very frequent dance parties in the house with a girl and

1:11:04

then it’s dance is such a huge part of our lives so we can dance to it. We’re probably going to be a fair

1:11:12

Alright, favorite food? Where are you going to eat? What are you cooking at home tonight? And it’s spicy. All of that. So we grew up with a stepfather that was from Nigeria and

1:11:26

I have no idea how much we like spicy before that but that’s certainly accelerated and then the Nashville and the whole hot chicken trainees the tap and here I am a part of the reason why those businesses are doing very very well. I take my money take all of my money a bit. He put our chicken on a bun put it on a stick put it just give it to me Give me a more chicken since I haven’t had any all week. Now that we we’ve brought it up. I think that’s probably where I’m at.

1:12:01

Last time I was in town, I noticed the new Hattie B’s downtown and fifth and Broadway. So it’s everywhere down there. But I love it. Well, Dwayne, where can people check out more about you the work you’re putting out? short film. I’ve got the website for all of my directorial stuff. That’s Dwayne Logan, calm. Thank goodness, I was able to get that address. It’s weird. It’s a weird new world like thinking about business, I had no idea that there are people that make money by just buying IP addresses, then you got to fight them for it and pay them for it. Maybe that’s something I should to look more into. But Dwayne hogan.com that’s the very general broad, sweeping one. And then for the short film, there’s black thoughts film calm. And there’s a very talented musician that was a part of the roots that goes by the name of black thought, which I did not realize it’s like we’re sharing some some internet space with it. And so if you don’t put film on the end of that, you just probably end up somewhere listening to his music. So black box film calm. Hello, doing man, I really appreciate you taking the time. It’s been a fantastic conversation. I think there’s a lot more we could cover we can talk about probably go a lot deeper on some of these topics and subjects but we’ll definitely save that for maybe a cup of coffee at Fido. Next time. I’m in town. And but man, I love what you’re doing Keep it up. You’re you’re making a dent in the the positive changes of the world. So certainly appreciate all those efforts. And thanks for being on the podcast. Man. Thank you so much, Brad. You’ll be looking forward to find it.

1:13:46

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00:00

We are so willing to auto draft a car payment. We are so happy for the federal government to just take our money out of our paychecks. Like, is it going to be 1000? Is it going to be 2000? I don’t know. But like, just go ahead and take it or health insurance premiums, we will allow so much of our lives to be painted. Why can’t we payment ourselves first? pay yourself first.

00:26

Hey, it’s Nate Disarro and welcome to titans of industry the podcast where I talk to industry leaders and innovators who are at the top of their game and leading the pack in their fields uncovering some of the best stories in today’s business landscape. In today’s episode, I sit down with Sarah Catherine Gutierrez, a money guru, owner of financial planning company aptus financial and the mind behind Lady splaining money. Sara Catherine is passionate about helping women build wealth, and she has been featured in Time Magazine, Forbes better investing, and she and her husband own a salsa dancing business on the side. Sara flips the narrative on how women can save money by being proactive rather than passive defines just in time financial education, how to pay yourself first, and how savings accounts can enhance your happiness. Now let’s get to the episode. But before we do our team at content Titan wants you to know that we understand the challenges business leaders and marketers are facing right now, with moving to a more virtual world. We are experts in taking human connections and turning them digital. From virtual Events and Video presentations to promotional content and advertising. We are here to help guide you through the process of staying in front of your audience and making your life a little bit easier. People tell us all the time that they are lost and don’t know what to say or do and we exist to help your business continue to move forward, virtual. So if you’re ready to take your business and content strategy, virtual, we’re ready to help. Let’s get your business back to business. Now, here’s my conversation with Sarah Catherine Gutierrez. Well, Sara, Catherine, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down and talk about all things finance. It’s one of those one of those topics that I think everybody wants to know about, but nobody really dives into. And then one day you wake up and realize I wish I would have learned this stuff sooner. So I’m excited to have this conversation. I know I have a lot to learn. But why don’t you just give us a quick background? How did you end up in this world of finance and personal finance?

02:31

Well, first of all, thank you for letting me be on your amazing podcast. I love it. I mean, there are so many that I could discuss to that have really been inspirational to me and, and it’s a real resource for our community. And it’s a huge honor to be on it. You know, my background is not the most exciting background in the world. But you know, I was born and raised here in Little Rock. And you know, the the main, the main piece of my story that landed me into the world of finance, I think it’s such a teachable moment is the people in my life who inspired me and encouraged me to pursue finance, I think so many women don’t see a seat at the table, and they’re not encouraged to take one. And I have one particular stories I went to college in Salem College in North Carolina. And and I had some amazing people who were encouraging me to take a finance class, but there wasn’t one that fit into my schedule at my campus that could cross register to Wake Forest. Now Wake Forest is ranked higher, you know, tier wise is a school that my than the than the women’s college I was at. And there’s an intimidation factor of just all these really smart students over there. And this was also finance. So I walk into this 8am class in finance. And here are all these guys. Now, there probably are a couple women in this auditorium, but I don’t remember them. I just remember being a lot of guys. And you know that fight or flight thing? I definitely fly. So I was ready to fly. And a woman walked in the room and went to the front of the room. And I realized that was the professor I didn’t know because it said Kay Rogowski on this, you know, is the professor. So, I didn’t know that k was Karen. And so I sat down. And that was why I stayed in finance, because I took the class and one thing led to the other.

04:24

Yeah, you’re right. I think historically, the world has been controlled on the financial level, typically by men and I think just in the household in a business people would just assume it’s the man’s role because, you know, historically speaking, the man made the money so the man was controlling the money or controlling the finances. And obviously over the last several years that’s changed quite a bit. Luckily, but I’m glad there’s people like you out there. Really kind of pushing and turning the tide to say look, everybody, women included, should be in control your own finances and and be educated on it. So, talk to me about sort of your, your Crusade, if you will, cuz I don’t know if that’s what you consider it, but I feel like you’re out there helping people left and right, understand finances better. Why is it so important?

05:11

Yes. And I am a crusader. That is exactly right. Maybe an overexposed one, but I’m not going to stop until we’ve accomplished this. You know, to your point, if you look, there was a study done by UBS last year that well over 80% of single millennial women, when asked if they plan to after they get married, or in a long term partnership plan to be part of long term financial decision making said yes, of course, I would do that. But then the same year survey of married millennial women, less than half were involved in long term financial decision making. And I think what’s happening is it’s that it’s that bias that we’re not even seeing, it’s it’s that, you know, everybody’s really busy. Let’s divvy up duties. Oh, you know, you seem to know more about that you take it on? Well, let’s be clear why that might be. So you can have a boy growing up in a household where dad sits you down explain stocks to you. And, you know, people are just informally, you know, reinforcing that, yes, you belong here at the table. Now, I was one of the lucky people. I didn’t know any different. But my dad used to sit down with me with the paper. And we’d look he helped me pick out, he’d asked me to pick out a stock ticker and track the performance of a stock. That was very normal to me. And so I think that’s what’s happening is we are so reinforcing the normalization of women not feeling like they belong at the table. And then it feels, you know, like a unique decision. But it’s not unique to have your if it’s your male spouse take on that role.

06:52

Yeah, I think that’s absolutely right. I think the the normalcy and I don’t know, maybe you can explain this better than I can, what happens, from the time, we’ll just say a millennial woman goes from being single, and that 80% number drops to 50%. Essentially, once you get married, what, where’s that transition happening? That says, you know, all of a sudden, I don’t need to touch this. I mean, obviously, there’s the historical family, gender role that that probably happened growing up, but but what what do you think is triggered in the mind that says, pull back, like, don’t be in control of your own finances anymore? let somebody else even a spouse or partner like, I mean, that’s fine to trust that person to do that. But why did why do females specifically think they should pull back?

07:40

I think that it is just because we are not actively dealing with our money anyway. So it’s not like, Oh, I was making long term financial decisions in a clear, productive, analytical way. And then now I’m married, and I’m turning that over. I think we go into inertia autopilot. We make, we make passive financial decisions. So they’re still financial decisions, but we don’t make them with thought. And so it could be credit cards, using credit cards and going into credit card debt, or, you know, saving a very small amount in our retirement plan are not joining at all. So we’re just not making these proactive decisions. And then, you know, and then we just assume someone, we assume someone else can do it better than us. Now, can I give you the flip side Now, of course, okay, this is the vision. And you’re gonna just not even believe this. So I do retirement plans in my company, and a woman walks in, she’s 23 years old. She’s making $40,000 a year, she’s single. How much should I save? 10%. Okay. And she does it. She doesn’t know what her paychecks gonna be. She does it. Even if she says to me, I’ve never saved in my life. I’ve never been a good saver. That’s okay. Because she wakes up a year later. And she sees that she has maybe 4500 or $5,000, because her $4,000 has grown in the market. And she says, I am a saver. What’s the next thing I can do? Because now that’s on autopilot. We want inertia. I mean, this is a great example of inertia being a great thing because we get to inertia, our 10% great savings habit. That means we’ll be able to retire on time. So then you have that momentum. That confidence. You say what’s the next thing? Okay, you really need an emergency fund. Okay, remember, I’m not a good saver. Well, yes, you are. Let’s Let’s re wire that thinking, Oh, yeah, you’re right. I can do that. So let’s payroll, deduct 50 100 bucks every pay period into a savings account that you promise you’re not going to touch. That’s your emergency fund. Okay, let’s do it. The next year. What The next thing, that is how we turn this around, we turn it around by getting people it’s called Justin time, financial literacy. Now a lot of people have issues with the word financial literacy. And I do too. But unfortunately, it’s the accepted term for financial education.

10:18

So if we were to be less PC about it, what would we call it? I mean, what’s a more appropriate way to describe the financial

10:24

education is better. So just in time, financial education, so just getting you so like, think about it. You’re in high school, and someone wants to talk to you about an amortization table for buying a home? is that relevant information to you

10:36

know, and it’s not the in high school? I don’t, I don’t care, right. Home Buying is so far in the future that it just doesn’t resonate.

10:45

Now. You’re mowing lawns on the weekend? Now someone wants to come in and talk to you about how to save for a car, are you interested? That’s just in time financial education. So if we can get people just in time, financial education, this is how we change it. So remember, our woman who is signing up for her retirement plan, and she happens to sit in front of someone who cares about educating you, most people when they’re signing up for their retirement plans, they’re in front of a computer screen. I mean, that’s it, they have to make the decision on their own. So here’s an idea. The Women’s Foundation of Arkansas says we want to promote women’s financial empowerment, how do we do it? What if every single woman graduating from college can learn one important thing, which is to save 10% for retirement, they’re about to get their first jobs. And we can get them and make sure that they know it’s so when they’re alone in front of their computer screen that’s asking them how much to save, they know to put 10%. So we have hit. We’re hitting eight colleges right now to sororities at University of Arkansas, and hundreds of women. We are getting them a save 10 talk right now. So we’ve completed six out or seven out of eight of these talks at this point. The last one is next Monday.

12:00

That’s all so what’s the benefit? What’s the impact that this makes? So if I’m 22 years old, and I get this just in time, financial literacy, education, and I start saving 10%, my first paycheck after I graduate? What’s the difference in my future outlook and retirement age versus somebody who even puts that off five years, maybe 10 years, which is probably closer to the average when people realize they wake up one day and say, Well, maybe that 2% I was saving should have actually been 10%?

12:28

What a fantastic, sophisticated important question. Okay, I have from experience asking for a friend. Okay. So I happen to have these numbers in my head, which is miraculous, because I am not a math person. Okay, I can add and subtract with the best of them. But that’s about it. So here is the math. If you are 25 years old, and you make $40,000 a year, and you save 10%, assuming just normal cost of living increases in your pay, and about a five to 6% rate of return, you know, over over a 30 year period,

13:09

which is fairly conservative, right?

13:10

Yeah, very conservative, especially when you look at what’s happened in the last 10 years. So you would have just short of a million dollars, which would be enough money, because people ask me like how much is do I need to save for retirement? retirement is definitely it is there is no set retirement formula, it’s your numerator. numerator is how much money you have saved, divided by how much you need to live on. And it should be about 25 times so. So we know that that almost a million dollars, would spin off enough money that someone making $40,000. Now between a little bit of social security, and how much they can draw safely from that money, they can retire by the time they’re 65. We do not know a lot of people who can retire at 65 right now on their own terms. So that is miraculous. If you waited 10 years, you’re 35 now and you’ve decided, oh, I’ve heard this save 10 movement, I need to start saving 10% if you started saving 10% at 35 you would have about 560,000 at 65. So about 40% less money just waiting that one decade saving the same amount. It is it is insane. And what this is it’s the power of time and compounding. So you’re putting money in that money is growing. And then that money keeps growing and you put more money in and it grows. So this is compound interest. And and what’s interesting is when I talk to people, so I am for sure, a spender, right? I’ve done the credit card debt thing. I’ve done the under saving thing in my early 20s. Like I don’t care about retirement. I’m not inspired by it. So so I am definitely of the people Okay, when I think about this, and so I’ll tell you the way my brain functions of how I have convinced myself to part with money that I urgently need right now. I urgently need a Tesla this moment. need it? Okay, here’s what I tell myself. If I am 40 years old, and I save this much right now, then in 10 years, I don’t have to save even that much more. So I’m basically telling my future self, you’re welcome. I took one for the team right now for you. So that when you want to upgrade your lifestyle, you want to take nicer vacations, you want to drive a nice you wanted, I’ll give you that Tesla and your 50s, like, you’re gonna get one I promise, like, I’m taking one for the team now so that you can have that. That is my best recommendation is, it’s not delayed gratification to 65. So if you’re in your 20s, God be broke in your 20s. Right? Like, this is the time to be broke. Be as broke as you can, like I was talking to a kid who graduated from PA, he’s not kid, he’s 21 young adult, a young adult. Yeah. And he’s 21 years old, he’s at Columbia. And he gets in all his friends business, and he tells them, save 40% of your money, don’t save 10, save 40 be broke now be broke, everyone expects you to be broke. So do it. And and then when you’re in your 30s, you can pursue other things, because you’ve gotten a head start. I think a lot of people associate saving, with negativity, with deprivation, with all kinds of stuff. But if they can experience what it’s like to feel the fruits of even one saving reward, then they see Wait a minute, like I can still be a spender and a committed one at that like I am. But I can also see that’s really gratifying to see my money grow. And you know, you asked me my personal story. You know, I gotta tell you, I worked the long hours. And my husband did too. And one chance decision to save, which is a long story. But I’m telling you, it was a hard fought battle, Depart with money and put it in a savings account. And I didn’t even know why I was doing it. I got the idea. Just like you as an entrepreneur, you get that idea. You can’t let it go, right. I think a lot of people get that idea. They can’t let it go. But they have to, because they don’t have the ability, or the audacity to pursue owning a financial services firm. I had money in the bank, which was my audacity to go out and do it.

17:46

I love that. I had a conversation yesterday afternoon with someone that most people, I think, don’t become, quote unquote, as successful as they want to be or think they can be because they have too many things that they want to do. But the people that are the most successful find the one thing that they’re really passionate about, and they just are able to forget everything else. And they go hard after that one thing. And I think, on the financial side, if you can, at 22 years old, determined that I want to save, and that’s what I’m going to focus my 20s on and forget about everything else, when people go out to eat or take trips or buy fancy things. When you hit 3035 40, all of a sudden, you’ve got significantly more money in the bank and you’re living free, you’re happy with where you’re at. Whereas the people that didn’t do that, they’re catching up, and all of a sudden, they’re scattered. They’re like, how do I get to that place where I can relax and realize that I’ve got enough money that I can comfortably see myself in 20 years retiring. Whereas, you know, the person who’s got $10,000 in the bank, or investments, because they just never started. But they’ve got all these fun memories and all these things that happen. And now they’re worried about the future. I mean, how do we how do we transition from that mindset as a young adult, going from? I’m making a paycheck, now I’m going to go spend it to I’m making a paycheck, I’m going to go save it, like there’s a huge gap in a mental process of how we make that transaction transaction. How do we, how do we do that? How do we convince ourselves it’s very much like fitness, right? How do I get myself in shape?

19:31

So imagine if you want to go into fitness, and you’re on social media, and every single thing on social media was burgers and fries, and pizza was every single thing. That’s what all your friends were talking about. That was every single ad was burgers, fries and pizza. How easy would it be to to get excited about fitness if that’s all you saw?

19:57

I feel like you’ve been looking at my social media. But no, but I completely hear you. I think that’s exactly right. Yeah, the visual assimilation and the things we consume. Yeah, we’re watching our friends out spending money having a good time. That’s

20:13

okay. So let me ask you this question. Could you post right now, if you went and got a new Tesla, could you post that on social media right now? Sure. Absolutely. And what would people do? They would like, like, like, comment, I mean, they write whatever. Yeah, okay. Could you post? You know, let’s say you hit a big milestone in your retirement account. Could you post that?

20:34

I sure could. But I probably wouldn’t. Why? It’s not sexy. It’s not cool. It’s not fun.

20:38

Right. You’re buzzkill. This is our problem. We cannot we can only talk about money in unhealthy ways. We cannot talk about money in healthy ways. We have made it absolutely acceptable to talk about the new house we bought. I mean, look at it, like look at the humble brags on Facebook. We can humble brag about expensive vacations, European vacations about standing in front of our new house that we just bought, you know, you know, I’m so thankful I was able to get this new car, right? Like That is all acceptable that we have made it taboo to say I save 10% into retirement and so glad, like I mean, I can imagine like the humble brag. Wouldn’t it be so great if we could humble brag about our retirement and saving, because then you would have peer pressure, then you would have all these people feeling axed? And that is a good thing. We need the opportunity, we deserve the opportunity to feel peer pressure to save money.

21:41

So what we should be doing right now is encouraging people to take their bank app, make a transaction into their retirement accounts, screenshot it, and post that on social media. Yeah, and say, hey, check out what I did today.

21:53

And there was one day a year you can do that. So on October the 10th of every year, we have made it not taboo for everyone to post that they are saving 10% so 1010 get it, love it. Love it. 1010 every year I want, I want that to be a thing where everyone posts I am I save 10% You don’t have to post personal like account balances because maybe that is too private. But we can all post that we save 10% right? That’s not that doesn’t reveal how much money you make that doesn’t reveal how much money you have. It is simply saying I save 10%

22:33

What’s almost like back to the working out getting in shape thing and don’t post your weight. Just post the fact that you’re in the gym doing something 100% Yeah, yeah. Well, alright, everybody. So that’s, that’s your 1010? And why don’t we just make it a monthly thing the 10th of every month? I mean, doesn’t doesn’t have Why wait, why do we have to wait till October? You know, I think I think we can make this a monthly, you know, you’ve got Throwback Thursday. And all these little hashtags, why don’t we just make it 10% 10 on 10 or so? No. I love this. All right, we’re onto something here. Okay, so you’re passionate about this, you’ve you’ve kind of taken this, like we’ve said, you’ve you’ve kind of launched this Crusade, to the point that you wrote a book, tell me about the book, what what should I know about it?

23:19

I mean, it’s literally like I made a book where I was like, I want the title to tell sometimes I go through times where it’s, it’s a struggle to read a book. We’ve all been there, okay, like I’m reading a ton of them right now. But like there are stretches of your life where it is just not it is just not in the realm of possibilities. And when I was birthing all these babies, it seemed to be the time that was really hard to read books. So I was like, I want to make a book where you know, maybe a college student is not ready to read a financial book that the cover will tell them everything you need to know. So it’s called, but first save 10. So the idea of like, the book first is saying like, Hey, I’m with you. I want you I want you to spend, I want you to have good time, I want you to go out with your friends, I want you to go on vacations, like I want you to do these things. But first, save 10 and so I read a book literally for 23 year old women. That’s it. Like it’s it gives an example of a 23 year old woman it is it is literally saying you get out of college, you start your first job, here is what you need to know. Now I do make the case to save. I tell you why 10% I give the math for people who want to know the math. I give the emotional reasons for people who want to know like Why should I even bother, I give the feelings of freedom of security that people will feel I give them all the reasons that I find it interesting to save and, and other and other people find it interesting to save so that people of all emotional backgrounds, you know, financial background, they can connect with this idea of not just saving, but being proud of saving. So then in the book, I do offer a cash flow management system. We’re not taught it in school and I believe that we can use money to enhance our lives. This whole idea that money can’t bring happiness. That is absolutely patently wrong. My husband used to work 60 hour weeks driving to Jacksonville running a plant, no air conditioning and a hot summer. And I mean, because we saved because I started my business and we so we’ve always lived on one income. I started my business. And then when it got to a point where you know, it was, you know, solvent we could live on that. We own a salsa dancing nightclub. I don’t know if you know that. Oh, yeah, no idea. I guess podcasts just took a whole different turn. I’ll tell you, the only reason is interesting is so it was a hobby. And so I actually so people see my husband’s from Bogota, Colombia, they probably safely assume that he’s the one that started to actually I started it, okay. It’s when I moved here to Arkansas. 10 years ago, there was no salsa dancing. I’m passionate about salsa dancing, I salsa dance. All I like didn’t go to my classes in grad school, and I would salsa dancer camps obsessed with it. And there wasn’t any here. So I started it. And I haven’t turned into, you know, 10 people coming and 50 people joining and then 100 people joining and then 300 people joining. Okay, so like it became a thing. And so then my husband got that’s how we met. We met salsa dancing at the Red Room. I love it. Okay, we got married, had kids. And after our third baby, we’re tired. And we’ve we’ve been partnering with one he does. And then one eight is went under. And the landlord says, Do you want it? And my husband was like, Yes. And I was like, Are you insane? He ran the numbers and figure it out. He was able within nine months to replace his income. Because we paid in cash for everything we our savings, we invested our savings in this replaced his income working one night a week. That is objective, objective increase in happiness? Absolutely. If we had not saved, that never would have been in the realm of possibility.

27:05

So let’s let’s turn the table a little bit. I know a lot of people out there. They’ve got plans I’ve got, you know, things they want to do and accomplish. And of course, it takes money to do that. So similar to the story, but you know, I’ll take my business, you know, I had to invest a little bit to get a little bit of financing to get things off the ground. And of course, you know, it was luckily lucky to be in a position where I had enough savings to do that. Most people feel paralyzed because they can’t start their own business or do their own thing or or buy that next car or whatever it is. Because they feel like they’re always trying to save but they never can. So how do we how do we talk to people in a way that says you know, you want that thing? You want to start a business or you’ve got your your goals set on this, but you feel like you can never get there? How do we? How do we get there? How do we aggressively create the mindset that says, we actually can do that?

28:02

Nate, you’re asking the best questions. And I don’t say that all the time. This is exactly the question we need to ask is why can’t we do that? So what’s happening is, and I see this, because we see these people in our offices, exactly what you just described, and it’s people that are operationally breakeven. So here’s the scenario. So you, maybe you’re saving for retirement 10%. But then what happens is you’re breaking even on your income on your paycheck coming in, and everything’s working out. And so then you’re like, well, I’m gonna save a little bit. So you open up a savings account and you save, then what happens. So your operation break breaking even right? So you can pay your bills, you can pay your rent your mortgage, you can pay all those things, what happens that sets you back, vacation, breaks in the house, something breaks in the house, need that new mattress, the new mattress, you nailed it, like I hope you will go into financial planning, your insight is exactly what we don’t understand. And so then what happens is, they have to raid their savings account, they’re back to square one, or they’re even in some credit card debt. And they say, See, I can’t do it. So the the book, that’s why I teach a cash flow management system. I have seven savings accounts. I teach people to open up savings accounts for travel, for home repairs for their next car, for health expenses, all of those things, gifts. Oh my gosh, people don’t realize how much they spend on gifts. Okay, so you open up all these savings accounts, and you automate savings into them. So here you have your emergency fund, and you have defined your emergency fund. What is an emergency if you are in a situation and you’re asking yourself, Is this an emergency that is by default, not you’re not in an emergent situation? Okay. COVID in emergency Okay, like when, when when you own a salsa dancing nightclub during a global pandemic, that is by definition Emergency, okay, we had to pull out the red folder of lifestyle cuts because that indeed was an emergency. And that’s where we dusted off our emergency fund. So you can have this emergency fund, or call it what you want. Some people call it a walk away fund, some call it a nephew, fund, whatever you want to call it, you have a pile of money that is accumulating cash, for that big moment in your life, you’ll know it when you see it, and you never touch it. And so the other savings accounts, enhance security, enhance happiness, like vacations literally had been proven to make you absolutely happy, like the happiness hypothesis, a great book on like, what statistically will make you happier vacations is one of those. So put money into your happy bucket. Right? So put them into all these buckets. And then you can be operationally breakeven from there, then you can literally spend everything in your account and get ahead.

30:54

It’s so funny that it seems so simple. And I mean, you know, we can automate our social media, we’ll spend time creating posts, putting them into a planner and making them so that on next Monday, it just automatically populate. And we know how to do that. And we see the value in that. But yet, banks have apps, they have online portals, it’s easy to do that. But we don’t. What I mean, what’s the barrier? Why, and we talked about this before we started recording. Money is one of the simplest things, it’s it’s literally $1 is a piece of paper that has a one on it, or, you know, few numbers on a screen. It’s so simple. But yet, it’s so complicated. And we in our mind, I think make it even more complicated on how we can use it. And so why don’t we just all graduate college or even in high school, create these bank accounts with all these savings accounts, and automate everything? Why? Why do we make it so difficult?

31:58

That is exactly right, because I believe we don’t learn how to do it. We don’t learn how to do it when it’s relevant. So you are right, you can be in high school. And if you have a steady job of any kind, you can automate that contribution. Or you can just have a rule that you live by that 10% of everything I make goes into this thing. And then when you do have a steady paycheck, you can set up whatever savings accounts are relevant, maybe it’s only three. But you learn how to do it. The reason people don’t do it midstream, that are my age, is because it might actually require you to cut your lifestyle. So then you’re not just doing this intellectual process, which you described, it is exactly the analogy of scheduling out social media. That is the best analogy. When you are doing this and you’re doing it with your first paycheck. It is that unemotional. When you are doing it at 40. For the first time, it’s emotional, because you are probably having to take a step back. You might have to sell your house, you might be in houses too big, you might have to downsize, how many times you eat out. I mean, you might have to do those things. But I will tell you this. I’ve seen people downsize. I’ve seen people make extremely aggressive cuts in spending. And not one time, have I ever heard anyone say, I wish I hadn’t done it. Because if you regret making spending cuts, you know what you can always do? spend more money, you

33:31

just spent more money. It’s just that easy. That’s very true. And I think the anxiety that we build up in our heads of making these lifestyle changes, and the older we get, the harder it is, right? So I like the unemotional piece of doing it when you’re young and you don’t know better. Like, it’s literally I’ve got this paycheck, I don’t know what to do with it might as well throw some in savings. And if you automate that, and you never think about it, I mean, I’ll say this too. I’ve moved a few times in my adult life. And every time I move, you got to change your electric bill, you got to change your this, your that. The one thing I never want to change is my bank account, because things get tied to it. And it’s so hard to undo the things you’ve done and, you know, the auto drafts for certain things. And once you set those things up, you don’t want to touch it. And and I think there’s so much to be said that if we can just automate this, this cycle of saving, just like we automate an auto draft to the electric company or to the insurance company or whoever, why don’t we do that to ourselves? I

34:29

mean, I’m telling you, it’s like literally, like you can’t have that, like your insights are spot on. What you are describing is pay yourself first. And so this is the same anecdote. Sometimes I’ll open up when I speak to groups and I say, we are so willing to auto draft a car payment. We are so happy for the federal government to just take our money out of our paychecks like, Is it going to be 1000 is it going to be 2000? I don’t know but like just go ahead and take it or health insurance. rents premiums, we will allow so much of our lives to be painted. Why can’t we payment ourselves first? pay yourself first.

35:11

So maybe, in maybe there is a resource like this, where we can get a bill every month that comes in, right before all the other bills. And we just, it’s a bill to us. I mean, does that system exist? If not, let’s start.

35:29

Great. Um, you know, there are some apps that, that that do that there’s a Canadian one, that you can, that you can write checks or savings to yourself, essentially. And what they do is, however much you have in savings, they will do these random cash giveaways. So it’s like playing the lottery. So you can so there are some technologies that are trying to get around the wiring in our brains that trip us up, that make us so I’ll tell you, you want to, you know, the two wirings that really get in our way? Absolutely. Okay, so one is adaptation level phenomenon. So our, our beings are adaptive. So we know that one year after a horrifying injury that someone could be acquired, that makes someone a quadriplegic, that they can have the same level of happiness one year later, that is the incredible power of adaptation of our human brain. Unfortunately, our human brain will adapt to our checking account. And that is why so we are going to adapt. So even though, so when people think like, oh, I’ll save if I make more money. Yeah, we’ve seen people chase that. So we work mostly with physicians, we have two sides of the business. And one side is financial planning. So we work with mostly physicians around the country. So we have physicians that come to us living paycheck to paycheck, on $800,000, a year, two years after residency, where they’re making 60,000 a year. And we don’t blink an eye because of course, they do it without a plan without a structure. Like we’re no matter how much money we’re gonna we make, we’re gonna spend it It’s funny, when I talk to people about that in groups are like, Well, let me try an 800,000. I mean, would you want to experiment with that, I wouldn’t want to experiment with that, I would rather make $60,000 a year and have a plan to make $800,000 a year with no plan, because I would spend it all. So that is a really important thing that we do not appreciate. And so if anybody listening to this hasn’t gotten on to the savings train yet and thinks I’ll save when I make more money, I call Bs, I should temper that a little bit. There are people who do not make enough money in this world, in this country, and there is a line. Now I don’t know where to draw that line. But I have seen people save in ways I would never be able to save so. So you know, people, people have to define that line for themselves. The second thing is hyperbolic discounting. And so what that is, is we so urgently live in the now. So presently live in the immediate needs of the now that we don’t have an appropriate discount rate for the future. So, so $1, you know, you should be benign to the fact that you can have $1 now or $1.06, you know, in in a year, right? Like that should be at, or $1.10, even whatever that appropriate discount rate is. But you might say no $1 an hour or $2 in a year, right? This is what our brains are doing is we can’t even, we can’t even appreciate this trade off, and value our future enough for it. And so this, so people have different levels of hyperbolic discounting. And there are some people that have it so well, they’re able to save because they see a compound interest chart, and they’re like, sign me up. I saw plenty of compound interest charts in my finance classes, yet I wasn’t a saver. And a lot of people assume financial advisors are all Savers, that bankers are all savers. I am here to tell you, that is not the case, they might be interested in investing, they might put a little investing, that doesn’t mean they’re putting enough in it for their future. And so those are the two pieces of brain wiring that we have to get around. And so what I love is technology doing what you’re saying. So for instance, acorns app will actually round up. So if you spend $1.50, they will say we’ll round up to the next dollar. And so if you spend $1.50, we’re going to put 50 cents into your savings account, rounding up to $2. So you see I spent $2 on something, it doesn’t even matter because we don’t really compute actually how much we’re paying for things. Like for instance, cash. We can talk about that in a minute. Oh, yeah. Well You say this as an owner of a bar? Do you know how much you pay for a mixed drink in taxes? A lot? Do you know the number? 30%? Yeah. 28%? Yeah. Do you think most people when they’re ordering, one of the most delicious mohito? is in town club? 27? Do you think that they are calculating?

40:24

You have no clue. Whoa, $5 is $5.

40:26

Right? We’re not even calculating it. So if we’re not doing that, again, why not do that to ourselves like it. So we’re willing to do it against ourselves, do it for ourselves, I love roundup apps. And you can have them round up like, not just to the dollar, but to the second dollar. So if you spend $1.50, they put a buck 50 into your savings. So that’s a great way of sneaking savings. Now, I would say that’s a savings enhancement. That’s more like, I’d like to reach a really lofty vacation goal, I would not use that for my core savings, my core savings, get it out, get it out of the account before you even see it. And then you’re a lot less likely to disrupt meaningful savings,

41:12

which is ironic, because you know, businesses do that for employees, right? with taxes. When when you make $5,000 a month, the business is automatically going to take $1,000 out of that, and send it to the government for you, right? We don’t miss it, we don’t know it’s gone, we just know that we get $4,000 a month instead of five, and that some of that had to go to taxes. So why do we not do that for ourselves? I love that. I think there’s so many ways to do it. There’s so many valuable ways to do it. But I do want to hit on cash for a second. Because I feel like when I pull a $20 bill out and pay somebody a $20 bill, and I get back $4.58 I realize how quickly, money can go. But yet we’re in a digital world, we’re in a credit card world, we hardly ever spend cash anymore. Do you feel like there’s there’s a big disconnect from the way things were probably 30 years ago, 40 years ago, to the way they are now where we don’t see money in its physical form. All it ever is, is an electronic transaction that we don’t we don’t really ever pay attention to Yes. So how do we how do we kind of almost create this cash mindset of Wow, I spent 15 bucks. And that went real quick. Cuz we could do that with paper money. Like, I mean, I’m baffled every time I pay cash for something like, I don’t I don’t like this, I don’t want to spend as much money. But when I swipe the card, like 100 bucks gone, don’t even blink an eye. How do we kind of transition that mindset?

42:42

I mean, again, like we’re trying to hire a new financial planner right now. I don’t know if what you’ve got going on. But that’s exactly right. Like, and I’ll tell you exactly how we do this. So I’ll tell you how my husband and I do it. And and I’m telling you, it will change the way people look at money. Because that is exactly right. We have completely lost our ability to track many people will tell me all the time, I don’t know there was a lot of money in there. And then all of a sudden it was gone. That is what people say to me over and over and over. So here’s what you do. So you pay yourself first. So here’s your formula. Get that. So So that’s how you pay your taxes and benefits that’s out you have your net check, okay, you start there, then you subtract your savings accounts, deposits, now that’s gone, then you subtract your bills, then what that number is, is how much you can spend.

43:37

So let’s use real numbers for a second and easy numbers. God you’re gonna make me do math. Really easy. Okay, who combined household income $10,000 a month? Okay, we’re saving 10% Yeah, off the top. That’s $1,000 that goes straight in to a savings account. I don’t even see it. So now I’ve got $9,000 Where do I go from there? So I took my 10% put in savings. I got $9,000 What’s my next so then we got to get our taxes out. So let’s get a real simple. So let’s say 5%. taxes on $10,000. We’re taking another 2500 our

44:10

30% 30% Okay, so that’s okay, so so yeah. 10,000. So 10% for savings. 30% for taxes, that’s 3%. We’re down to 6000 $6,000. Okay, so let’s say the savings are another $1,000. Now we’re down to 5000. And then let’s say we spend 10% on our house, on our housing, which by the way, banks will tell you

44:42

Yeah, you don’t so much.

44:47

Were you studying and cramming for this? Okay, so 10% then, so So are you keeping track so now we’re at 4000?

44:54

Well, if we’re only spending 10% your house Yeah, we’re down

44:58

down to 4000. And we got some other bills. Let’s say it’s 500. And so then it’s probably more than that, because people are gonna have student loans car payment, so we’ll get us down to $2,000

45:09

in debt. So now we’re down to what 3500?

45:12

Yeah, and I would say probably with, with, with the reality of people’s situations, and that I would probably take us down to 2500 that we can spend,

45:20

okay. And when you say spend, because we’re spending money on house, and we’re spending Is this our like, I can go out to eat, I can go to this, I can go buy some

45:28

fuel in my car, I can go buy some clothes, I can go get a manicure. That’s what I’m talking about.

45:34

So to do it the right way. What you’re saying is basically, I mean, again, everybody’s situation is going to be different. But we’re really living on a disposable income of about 25%.

45:45

Right, so So do you see what we’ve done here? So we had someone who had who was thinking, Oh, my gosh, I make $10,000 a month. And we have just shrunk that down to 2500. But wait, there’s more. Okay. So what if we isolated that money? So what if we like, we know there’s noise in our check the timing of bills, and when they happen? And you know, our account? Could that very account could fluctuate by $6,000? swing in one day? So what if we took that 20 $500 and put it into another account, another checking account? And we did something even more precise? How easy Do you think it would be to budget that 2500 in spending over a 30 day period?

46:34

depends on if I have the right tools, the right education to but you have no tools, no tools, and you’re walking around? It’s day one of your 30 days. How much can you spend on lunch and dinner? No, I have no idea. Right? What if you can you do some math on your phone? I would be happy to can you divide 25? So take 2500 and multiply it by 12 2500 times 12. Now divide that $1,000. Okay, divide that by 52.

47:02

All right, we’re $576 rounding up 577.

47:06

Now, it’s Monday, in $577. hits this checking account. Are you gonna go real big on dining out for lunch and dinner? If you know that you’ve got this for seven days? Probably not? No. That is what my husband and I do. So my husband and I, when we first got married, I was using this Excel spreadsheet, and I was tracking everything. And we were watching our spending and we were saving. And we at that point, we’re spending 500 I think it was 550 a week. Now, with two people, three little humans and a dog. We are spending $430 a week.

47:54

How do you live on that? How do you make that happen? How does that work?

47:57

Because over time, we were realizing that we were gamifying our account? Have you ever heard of gamification of money? You make it a game? When you do this process of putting $570 on a Monday into your account? Whereas before you were like, well, it’s gonna blow Anyway, why not just go out to dinner? What happens is you learn the rhythm of your money you learn if I don’t go if I brown bag today, and tomorrow, we can go on a huge date night Friday. And what ends up happening is you do without you do without and it’s not because you’re deprived. You’re just like so excited about what you’re going to have. And then you do this thing where my husband’s the saver? I’m the spender. I am the one who does the majority of the cooking therefore, because groceries and food are a big piece of a discretionary budget. So we have this very appropriate deal that if there is money leftover in that account, it goes to me. I mean, that is reasonable, of course. Okay. So I have every incentive to crock pot a few days, right like tonight, guess what we’re having for dinner. beans and rice. There we go. Dad is super cheap, but $1.25 will feed a family of four. Right? And we love beans, right? beans and rice. If you ask my four year old daughter, her favorite meal, she would say beans and rice. It is not depriving It is a great healthy meal and you throw some veggies in there. Point is, is that in a very undescribed way we have learned to cook more at home. We have learned that we can not eat out so much at lunch and eat healthier, it’s healthier for our bodies. And we are saving more and spending less without even realizing it. And the power is in budgets that our brains can actually do mental accounting. We can’t mental account 20 $500 over 30 days but we can mental account 570 over seven days. And guess what am I using a credit card or a debit card? I would hope a debit card. Yes. Because of Credit Card, all those points, all those incentives? Yeah, they want you to spend more money. And they know our brains, we think we know we think we’re in charge on those credit card point, we are not in charge. So true. And so the account balance is going up on a credit card, which does not trigger a warning in our brain, our debit card is going down, which triggers a warning in our brain, our brains are working without us consciously knowing these things. And that is why if you set your, if you set your budget your system up in a way that works best with your brain, then you can save and spend in ways that you don’t feel are depriving.

50:44

Isn’t that amazing? That’s cool. And the reality is, it’s not that hard. No, it takes a little bit of discipline a little bit education, maybe call you and have a conversation. And before you know it, you’re going to be automated, you’re going to be doing things in a much simpler way, you’re going to be breaking your finances down into a very simple, approachable way of $570 a week instead of 20 $500 a month. It’s very difficult for the mind to comprehend. When when we think about you as a person you as like, I love the fact that you guys own the saucer club. I had no idea. And I love the personality that comes out from just just knowing that but I want to get to some quick questions, some kind of fun, personal little anecdotes. You mentioned books, what’s the best or latest book you’ve read that that really kind of made an impact on you?

51:31

fiction or nonfiction? Both? Okay, who is ma Dixon fiction will rock your world will make you suspicious of everything, including yourself, everyone. Okay. Best nonfiction that I have read recently. I love brock obama’s book, I just read that. And I just I love getting insight into politics and governing. And that was just fantastic book. And so I might choose those. I

52:00

love it. What is a daily routine that you have to do?

52:04

Wake up at 4am and meditate every morning?

52:08

That’s incredible. That takes a lot of discipline. I’m a morning person. Okay, well, good. Good. So you’re probably wearing down it’s four o’clock in the afternoon here. My bedtime is about four hours, right?

52:18

best piece of advice you’ve ever given or received. Don’t say save 10 then I don’t know what we’re doing here. Yeah,

52:27

so um, the best piece of advice I have ever been given. That is so good. And I hope you will trim down this long pause. I think the best advice I have ever been given is to be aware of the ego. That is really important. Because when you’re chasing success, there is true success. And then there’s the perception of people thinking you’re successful. And we can be happier people if we can be authentic. And I have learned that advice. And I I have been trying very hard to implement it. But yes, and then my best advice, save 10% from the very beginning. it’s painless. Love it.

53:35

Obviously the last year COVID-19 has been quite a lifestyle change for a lot of people. So what is a newly formed habit or routine that that you’ve picked up good or bad?

53:47

So I you know, the lucky thing of having to close down a business for 370 days is that we have had family dinners together. And you know how before COVID you would just so like easily sign away. So many dinner family dinner nights like you’re just so willing to give them up. Oh, you will have to fight for one of my evening times of family dinner

54:18

must be some really good rice and beans. Super good. If you wrote your own book, what you have, what would the title be another plug for the book here?

54:29

Well, the actual book I wrote is called but first save 10 but yes, I’m actually working on my next book. I don’t have a title yet.

54:39

Love it. Is it along the same lines? Are you going a different direction with it? Are you allowed to talk about it?

54:45

I’m afraid to talk about it because I don’t want to jinx it.

54:48

Understood. What is the best thing you’ve bought in the last year for under $100 as a spender but also as someone who preaches saving, I

54:58

can tell you what I want to buy movie. It’s $300 I really want to buy a Roomba. Wouldn’t that be life changing?

55:06

I’ve heard they are. Yeah, that would change my life. Okay, so you’ve got to save a little more. Yeah. favorite artists or music?

55:17

favorite artist or music? Um, gosh. Um, is this the point where I can like tell you? I’m a super big dork and like, I don’t know, cool musicians.

55:30

I mean, but are you like stuck in the 90s on music? Or do you just are you not a big music fan?

55:35

No, believe it or not like, I’m a salsa DJ. So I love like old 1970s Puerto Rican and Colombian salsa.

55:44

Fascinating and definitely a first on the podcast.

55:47

Yeah. So like, I love Ruben Blades or blood days, whoever is listening like you all in Latin America say it both ways. And so I’m gonna say it both ways to no one says you’re saying it wrong. Ruben Blades or Ruben blot is I love him.

56:06

Favorite food? If you when you get to go out to eat? Where are you going?

56:09

red moon Tavern? Oh, they’re gumbo. Wow. Incredible. Have you been there? You have to try it. They open it. Can you imagine opening? You’re set to open your restaurant in spring of 2020.

56:24

Yeah, I’ve seen several restaurants either delay their opening or went ahead and open and quickly pivoted their business model.

56:32

And I mean, they, they delayed the open. And every single week, they had a group of people come in and test and refine their menu that was already made. That made it just extraordinary. It is such a great restaurant, down Highway 10.

56:50

So good red moon time, and we’re gonna have to check it out. Last question, are you a fan of Netflix or the news?

56:58

Um, so I would definitely say my husband would accuse me of news and podcasts like politics pot like 538 podcast, he’s like, the angrier the better in my life. Like that’s when I’m cooking. Like I’m chopping my onions to to Charlie Sykes and the Bulwark, like that’s those are the kinds of things that I’m listening to. So I would like to move to more Netflix. That would be fantastic.

57:24

Love it. Well, Sara, Catherine, thank you so much. This was such a fun conversation. Hopefully people get tons of great advice and and go ahead and download all the apps right now automate that spending and saving and, and we’ll see what happens.

57:39

Well, thank you so much. And thank you for your own insights on this has been a really fun conversation.

57:46

If you like this episode of titans of industry, head to content Titan dot CEO slash podcast for more episodes, or subscribe on your favorite podcasting app. And if you know of an industry Titan that’s doing amazing things. Let us know on social media or through our websites so we can tell their story. Thanks for listening.

00:00

It’s trying to balance the artists narrative, the artists brand, the music narrative that we have. And then marrying that with what that content looks like. There’s not one specific that moves the needle. What works on one platform doesn’t work on another.

00:15

Hey, it’s Nate Disarro and welcome to titans of industry, the podcast where I talk to industry leaders and innovators who are at the top of their game and leading the pack in their fields uncovering some of the best stories in today’s business landscape. In today’s episode, I sit down with Heather Vassar, the Vice President of Marketing for Empire records Nashville. Heather tells us about the importance of storytelling in the lifecycle of an artist how her experience halfway around the world in Bali changed her life, and how her background being a competitive athlete, musician,

00:45

accountant,

00:46

and creative helped her create her dream job. Now, let’s get to the episode. But before we do, our team at content Titan wants you to know that we understand the challenges business leaders and marketers are facing right now, with moving to a more virtual world. We are experts in taking human connections and turning them digital, from virtual Events and Video presentations to promotional content and advertising. We’re here to help guide you through the process of staying in front of your audience and making your life a little bit easier. People tell us all the time that they are lost and don’t know what to say or do and we exist to help your business continue to move forward, virtual. So if you’re ready to take your business and content strategy, virtual, we’re ready to help. Let’s get your business back to business. Now, here’s my conversation with Heather Vassar.

01:42

All right, Heather, I’m so happy that we have the chance to sit and have this conversation. We’ve we’ve known each other for years, but haven’t really connected or talked in years. We’ll leave it at that. since college, we’ll put it that way. But just give me the quick sort of rundown. What are you doing? How did you get here? Give me kind of that that short story of how we’re sitting for me back in starstruck studios. And yeah. And you’re working for Empire records.

02:13

Yeah. Yeah. So I run marketing for Empire. based here in Nashville. I’ve been in Nashville since 2009. But I took a little hiatus and was in Dallas for a couple years in between now and 2009. But yeah, so I running marketing, I came from Universal, where I was in digital marketing there. And then I ran ran strategy at Universal here in Nashville. And yeah, I was looking kind of, for the next step in my career and in my life. And this literally was the the seat buddy on a plane, they kind of started this conversation that that led to to launching a new footprint here for Empire, which is mostly has been a hip hop and rap label. And they, you know, see the country genre is important and wanting to invest. And that’s what we’ve been kicking off for the last almost two years now.

03:08

That’s crazy. So two years of a new kind of existence in Nashville, were labeled it kind of shifted gears when they came here. I mean, you know, still doing what they do, but and of course, like not long after you guys get up and running, the bottom falls out and the world stops and tours can’t happen. So when you think about kind of all the things that you guys have had to shift and pivot and do differently, what was your biggest challenge in 2020, that that really maybe turned into a blessing.

03:38

Man, one, probably the biggest challenge was just cutting through the noise, right? After all of the artists came home, and had never been home for that amount of time to then having all of the artists really with no excuse to not do anything else. Right. So all of the artists that you have typically been on tour that were either, you know, trying to figure out other sources of income, having to you know, lay off tour, support and help and figure out other sources of income and figure out different ways. So the first part of 2020 was interesting, just trying to wrap our heads around. Okay, how long is this going to last? Is this really going to last? As long as they’re saying or, you know, I think for the at least the first couple months, we didn’t really know. And I don’t think anybody did. So, you know, we’re like, okay, we just continue to releasing music. There was a lot of artists in town and then as a whole that stopped. But we can we did not stop. We didn’t stop our release plans. We continued and we thought man, as Empire we are have continued to operate as digital for digital focused. And so that’s what we were like, we’re already in this space. We’re already creating content we already have content created so we just continue to roll with it. So yeah, I think the the biggest challenge especially At the beginning and even now was one cutting through the noise of because then everybody pivoted to live streams. And everybody pivoted to a lot I say everybody, but majority of I think the industry pivoted to doing whatever they could. And so then trying to figure out okay, what then sets us apart? And that? Yeah, absolutely.

05:17

And I love as a content creator content in the name of my company, but the fact that you kept putting out content and didn’t stop, people are sitting at home looking for new things, they’re getting bored. They’re, they’re sort of getting this fatigue from Netflix and everything else. And so I think it was such a great opportunity to just introduce new artists to people and, you know, continue to flood, because people, I mean, if there was a bottom to Instagram, I’m sure they got there, you know. And so it’s like, who have I not seen yet that I can see? And how did you see sort of some of those metrics come to life? And

05:51

it’s funny, I’ve said this quite a bit lately of, you know, I think we’re able to be on the upswing where we can kind of look back at 2020. And go, Okay, what, what did that do for us in a way? How do we excel in that, then also, where did we kind of misstep in some places, but I think what 2020 did for a lot of my artists that are either developing or, you know, kind of breaking, essentially, is that it leveled the playing field a little bit, because it took the ailis artists off the road, it took all of the developing acts at major labels. And as an indie label, you know, that it took them all off the road and said, Okay, now the music speaks, now the content speaks. And so we let that kind of out shine and continue to push. And that helped, you know, we have artists and in places where they are now, but I don’t know that that would have been the case, had, you know, US had to have competed with some of the other developing just in terms of this sheer space that they can operate as, you know, being on a major or something. So, yeah, that was definitely an interesting kind of time, and being able to look back now is like, okay, like, we were able to cut through the noise. And then also introduce, like you said, you know, when, when there was so much fatigue on Netflix, and, you know, we had to find the tiger kings and stuff like that, you know, but to have music out there, and to continue to kind of feed that system was was probably the best thing that we could do in that time. That’s really cool.

07:18

Have you seen a shift in artists like mindset? Because I think a lot of people get into an industry thinking it’s going to be one way. And of course, you guys are figuring it out as much as anybody else. But have, since you’re dealing with a lot of new artists, have you seen him have kind of a creative mindset to kind of figure things out with you? Or are they more resistant to things, say, I just want to sit back and wait till I can get on the road or whatever,

07:40

you know, it’s funny, every artist is completely different. I mean, they’re just creative beings, you know, so they’re as different as you and I, as, as anybody else that would walk into a room. And so you have to take every artist and every team completely different. So we did we had some artists that were struggling off the road, they’d never been off the road. And so figuring out okay, what can we fill in this space? With? What can we fill in the gap with? Where are you because you do get to take care of the artist mentally, especially because it does it when they come off tour, like it messes with them when they’re so used to that routine, and then they’re sitting at home. And it’s like, so you have that pendulum swing all the way then to those that wrote, and they were they had home studios, so then they were just making music and just diving into that. And then you had artists that were completely dove into the Tiktok space and socials on live and really diving into that. So every artist and every approach is completely different. I don’t think you can really cookie cutter it, you know, especially with how diverse our roster is much less all have empires that I think it would be a disservice to cookie cutter it for an artist you really have to take and go Okay, what are where, where are easy wins during this time, because nobody knows how to survive a pandemic? And how to get through that. And so what are what are easy wins that we can easily grab and then what are we okay to, to kind of allow them to be humans through this? You know,

09:08

I love that. And I would assume half your job is really kind of a producer for them. Like, what content are you making today? How are you kind of putting your own self your own brand out there? Because, you know, musicians, artists, they’re their content creators, and they do that for a living to sell their music, but to market them. That’s a whole different type of content. I mean, yes. fun for you. Do you enjoy the kind of giving them a list of things to do every day to keep marketing themselves?

09:37

Yeah, yes and no, there’s some of it. I wasn’t used to some of the day to day grunt work that comes with that. But I mean, I put together so many content strategy plans and decks and oh my gosh, how much of that is enjoyable for you kind of being their sort of producer and a Central Executive Producer, as well as helping market everything else they’re doing? Yeah. I love that. So Have it the content side, I hadn’t haven’t always trusted my eye on it, I’ve learned to trust it, I’ve learned to trust, what’s quality, what is great to put out what can move the needle, what doesn’t, what not to waste the time on and what you know, that looks cool pushes, you know, pushes things forward. And so I love that side of it, I love the being able to create great, great content, helping an artists kind of get in that groove and get in that rhythm, and then they get excited. So that’s, that’s the fun part, you know, you also have to balance that with, again, like I said, like, they’re creatives and human beings. And so you have to balance that. So there’s so you know, with some artists, you have to be very, kind of direct in the content strategy and plan and help them lay that out. And then some, you’re able to kind of free flow that and let that kind of just happen naturally. But yeah, I mean, I feel like I’ve said this a million times, like every artist is different. So that the plan, there’s really not a one plan that we stick to, but I love the creative side, it allows me to be creative, how I can’t, you know, however I can be, and, and let that kind of that side of me flourish alongside then the marketing side of the very analytical side to make sure that it’s properly pitched and placed and things like that. So.

11:18

So you mentioned you’re constantly trying to kind of figure out and help them identify what works, what moves the needle, what doesn’t. And of course, my first question was, well, what moves the needle? Is, are there trends that you’re seeing in the content world, especially with artists content, that, that really make an impact? And you can kind of boil that down to direct downloads or, you know, more views or things like that?

11:41

Yeah, I mean, it’s funny, when I first got in the music business, like, video streams didn’t count towards the chart, right? And so that it wasn’t as much of a factor. Now videos always been a great component and a great asset to have. But then, as I’ve been in the industry, now they do so then they matter. So then create compelling content is even more important. And then as the digital space has just grown, more platforms, you know, tick tock wasn’t around when I first started, that was, you know, it was musically and trying to figure that out, and then moving, moving to other platforms. So it’s, it’s trying to balance the artists narrative, the artists brand, the music narrative that we have, and then marrying that with what that content looks like, across all different platforms. So it really is that there’s not one specific that moves the needle, I think you have to be very cognizant of what works on that platform, because what works on one platform doesn’t work on another. And so you have to, there’s a, you know, a lot of artists are starting out, even outside of the music industry, they throw the exact same thing across all platforms, and you’re gonna see a difference in engagement is a difference in how the platform promotes it, how that hits the algorithm. So, yeah, there’s so many components to it that of course, there’s no magic formula. I mean, I wish there was, I wish I’ve discovered the magic formula, as I’m sure you do, as well. Yeah,

13:05

we all wish we could discover that magic formula. But But there is a formula. And I think that’s the important thing is, you’ve got to kind of identify that for yourself. You know, it’s almost like, if you’re making your own recipe in the kitchen, you can use somebody else’s, and hope that it turns out the way there’s turned out, but really, you can kind of take some liberties and make it your own. And I think you have to find out what works for you what what tastes you like when it comes to food? And then for artists, what actually resonates with their viewership?

13:31

Absolutely. I think I preach to my artists in teams all the time is authenticity, Authenticity, I can throw out as many incredible ideas as as I can. But if it doesn’t, then feel authentic to the artists, it will never work. And it won’t work the fans can see right through it. They’re smart, they can see right through it. And so it’s only when that great idea hits on the authenticity of the artist, that that is probably more of where the magic is, rather than any type of rollout strategy or plan, majority of the time I sit behind the camera, I sit behind them, you know, on the the sound booth or you know, away from the mic, and they they’re the ones that have to sell it in whatever capacity that is, whether it’s a live show, whether it’s you know, any type of content, any type of branding, and so that has to feel and resonate with them, because when it works, it really works. And then they have to own that the rest of their lives. Not me.

14:28

That’s absolutely true. Yeah, I mean, I preach to people all the time about this idea of human to human interaction, right? So when we’re creating content, sure, there’s ways you can push out digital content and a lot of ways that it’s just graphic based, or whatever. And there’s certainly elements to that. That’s very informational and worthwhile. But if you really want to move the needle and get somebody connected to your brand, or to, in this case, your music, that humans human connection, because we throw out the word authenticity all the time as well. But I think what it boils down to, like what is often tissue will just be a human to another human. I mean, like, how would you connect with this person in real life? And don’t try and be something you’re not? Unless you’re a Broadway performer, then of course, by all means be a great Broadway performer or something, but, but for an artist for a brand for whoever it is, how are you connecting with this person on a human level? And I think if you can sort of boil it down into that simple mindset, then generally speaking, it’s going to be a winning strategy.

15:27

Yeah, I mean, that that builds careers, because then those fans stay with that artist Forever,

15:34

forever. And I’ve said it for a long time. I think Garth Brooks, in my mind is one of the best entertainers in the world. And clearly his numbers don’t lie. But I don’t think he’s the best musician. I don’t think he’s the best singer I don’t think he’s about but he just feels so human. Yeah, you know, and, and he’s a showman, just like a lot of people, but his presence, just what makes me want to be there, you know. And I remember in the 90s, going to a Garth Brooks concert, just thinking this was the greatest thing ever, because he just came alive. And he’s just so much fun to be around. But I still felt like I could just walk up to him right now. And he’d be kind of the same type of person.

16:12

Totally, totally. And that’s, that’s also a difference. I mean, there’s a difference of a superstar and entertainer, and an artist, and then a songwriter, there’s so many different levels, and kind of caveats to it. And yeah, Garth is absolutely on the entertainer side. But he wouldn’t have the career he did, if even at the very beginnings of it, it wasn’t authentic, you know, and so you can’t build on something that isn’t real. And sustained. So to be able to have a career, you know, and I think that’s where so many developing artists and artists trying to find their voice and what is that, and it’s so important, and I spend so much time just on the branding side of that just on that side of it, because they have to know and start to understand who they are, because then that will help them solidify their career, and fans will stick with them, or they will leave, you know, and that’s probably one of the biggest challenges with how DSPs are, you know, have come to the table and are involved because you get on a playlist and you get off the playlist. And there’s not a lot of people that will kind of dive into that. And to figure out who that is, it just really has to catch a fan for that to be the case, you know, so helping establish those pillars, outside of the artists with their music is just as important as their music is.

17:35

So break it down for me a little bit. Because I think a lot of people right now used to if a record went platinum, we knew what that meant that many actual albums were purchased. Yeah. So break down the music business a little bit for me right now, how if, let’s say I just released my first album, have zero listens or buys? How would I know? Like what’s measured what success for an artist these days, oh,

18:02

that’s two completely different measured and success is completely. It’s funny, I, I tell my artists all the time you like the numbers to to look at the numbers is is great. But to live and die by them is not. And so, you know, they get in this in this business, because it is a business right? I wouldn’t have a job if it wasn’t a business. But they have a craft and they are working to not just perfect that craft but but to to create the music that is essentially they will sing the rest of their life. So that’s kind of number one, I would say success. If they’re doing that, to be able to do that. Well, then I think that successful the the listeners, the viewership all that can come and go. But if they’re doing that, then that will help them for the rest of their life. Now, just on a numbers level, a basic, you know, numbers, music business level. Yeah. So I mean, used to if you bought a song, or if you bought an actual CD or a vinyl, like, that’s a unit right for an album or so with DSPs. Billboard, Nielsen, they have formulas in place that it’s like, Okay, if you have X percent of streams that are ad supported and X percent of streams that are, you know, paid in premium and all of that, then that generates one unit. So it’s still based off the units. They’re just now it’s a different way that to get there. And it’s all formulated based. And I touched on that a little bit of like, videos weren’t a part of the chart, but now they are but they’re still based off of premium views, versus ad supported views versus you know, an ad it’s, yeah, well, and it’s and it’s continuing to evolve as, as are all the DSPs like all the streaming platforms as they continue to evolve. So does the music business to to try and maintain that and to figure out okay, what is what is that balance of life How do we measure a unit anymore?

20:02

How does that change your day to day world? Because I would assume there’s always new platforms coming out always new places to release videos, music, everything. So are you the one that has to kind of pay attention to all those things until your artists were to be? Or is that a mutual job? Or does their management team do that? Like,

20:22

yeah, it’s it’s mutual. I mean, definitely, I always try and keep my ears to the ground, right? I mean, take a ton of meetings to vet companies to see, okay, Is this legit? I mean, I, my inboxes, flooded of, hey, would love to show you this, you know, and sometimes management will bring some of them to the table. And I’m like, I’ve never heard of this, like, you know, should we try this? I don’t know, a, because there’s also a lot of companies out there that are trying to game the system, right. So then they have a lot of watch streams, which are paid streams, which aren’t legit, which just throw everything off that mess up on the royalty side and the payment. So there is a lot of that, that you have to kind of funnel and there’s ways to kind of sort through that, right, that you can tell like, okay, 95% of my streams have come from a desktop and you’re like, well, that’s probably not the case. So so there’s a lot of tricks in that way of just kind of monitoring that I have the benefit of having a great team just being in those conversations of of the new either up and coming platforms or, or even kind of what’s coming, what’s not, you know, we take meetings all of the time of, Okay, here’s the new, here’s the new community, here’s the new you know, clubhouse like, and whatever that is, and then trying to figure out, Okay, what artists? Is this worth it for? What is it not? Who can engage in this one? Does it make sense. So in kind of determining where an artist fits in, and that, that usually kind of tends to sort itself out along the way as we continue to build off the music and the marketing plan and the rollout strategy?

21:53

Very cool. Alright, so I want to dig into Heather raster per second. Okay, and talk a little bit about just sort of, you know, there’s a lot that goes with, sort of being in charge of people’s careers, in a sense. I mean, you’re not the artist manager, and we got an episode with Dan wise, who come to find out as a good friend of yours, but and we love Dan, he’s such a great, great person in the business, but but you’ve got a manager that sort of, is sort of responsible for helping the artists themselves make some of those decisions. Yeah. And then you’ve got your organization and team that helps get the music out there, get it seen, get it heard, get it bought, tell me what your day sort of looks like? And then do you have any sort of frameworks that you like to live within whether it’s from a marketing standpoint, I’m a big fan these days of Donald Miller and the story brand framework, and I kind of look at how I help my clients tell stories using that kind of idea. Yeah. But is there anything that you employ that you’ve kind of fallen in love with? Or have that you’re constantly kind of looking at how to do your job better?

23:01

Yeah, I mean, one, I learned a lot when I was at Universal, and so being able to take the pros to that and build off that to create a new framework. And so to then combine what I learned there, and then what I’ve learned from everyone at Empire, and the great team that I have there, it kind of marry both of those, but then also continue to kind of push, I think it’s mostly my personality, that I am always wanting to kind of push against the norm, push against kind of the standard of, well, this is just the way we’ve always done it. Well, for me, that’s not good enough, red done, it doesn’t matter, we could be at the top of the world. And I’m like, I bet we could have done something different. You know, I bet we could have, or I can see like, Man, I wish we would have done this, and it would have been that much better. I think that’s just sheer personality, and just how I was made and wired. And so But yeah, I mean, I love Donald, I love the whole story brand approach. I don’t know that I follow it exactly, to a tee. But they’re definitely, you know, my day to day is not only managing the artists like all of the rollout plans for my roster. But then at the same time, it’s managing all of the relationships with the streaming partners, to make sure that hey, they know what’s coming and when and how they can get involved and what we really want them to lean in, lean on and make that story and narrative makes sense to them and, and how we can kind of get them to buy into it. But then at the same time also on the content side of like, okay, here’s the release strategy, here’s what we need. And so it’s I work with some of the best artists managers, which I love. And so that helps. It’s great to have, you need that to be honest. Especially in this world. You have to have a great team, just around an artist not only great music, you know, and it’s funny, I work with Franco Adele, and love him probably, you know, respect him so much in this in this industry. He’s been around, you know, for such a long time, and has established such a great trajectory for his company. And he, at the end of the day, he says, I just want to work with great people and make great music. And for me, that was it, that was exactly it, I was like that is exactly that. I’ll show up and do my very best, they’ll show up and do their very best with great music, and do the best we can to move the needle, make it, you know, roll it out, and then learn learn from that. So I’m all about adapting. Because I feel like when at my time at Universal, we did, I didn’t get to adapt. You know, I didn’t know if what we did worked. Because we had such big artists. And I was like, Well, of course it works. But does it work as best as it could. And so here, it’s very polarizing, with developing artists, and then, you know, even breaking artists of it’s like, okay, you know, when something works and when it doesn’t, but I have the ability and the agility to pivot on a dime, and go, Okay, well, that didn’t work. So let’s do something else. And quick, right. And so that’s, that’s been very refreshing in this to go, okay, we can content fly so fast in this world, and you know, that, you know, so what you release is, it’s really coming on, you know, so it’s like, okay, I tell my artists all the time, like, you make a post, maybe 10% of your audience sees that one post. So like, you probably can’t promote your music too much. If you’re worried about making two posts, after it’s out, like, I promise you like just with how the algorithms work everything. So it’s definitely kind of, you know, balancing that as we’re rolling out and preparing but I don’t know, I don’t think I answered know what my day to day looks like.

26:42

But that was great, though. And one things you said I loved ability and agility. The interesting thing there, one of the people I’ve had the chance to interview for sort of a lifetime award that they were getting recognition. They’re a multi billionaire, huge fortune 100 business, I believe. And I asked him point blank at the end of the interview, because this was selfish of me, I kind of get this free MBA from having this these kinds of questions, but I’ll prepare myself for whatever that the last question is. But I said, What’s the one thing that you feel like has helped make your organization successful over these many years, decades? And he said, when we have an idea, we quickly put that idea into action. If it works, we double down on that idea. If it doesn’t work, we kill it so fast and move on. Yeah, no idea is is too good to kill if it’s not working. Yeah. And he said, I’ve seen plenty of companies out there that they have an idea. They think it’s the best idea. They move forward with it, it’s not working, they tweak it and don’t tweak it enough or don’t invest enough in that idea. And then it just ends up slowing them down instead of helping them accelerate move faster. And absolutely, there’s so many brilliant people in the world that have so many great ideas, that if one’s not working, move on.

28:02

Yeah, I feel like that you probably interviewed my CEO, because that’s kind of what he lives in breeds for sure. When I first started with Empire, you know, I was waiting for approvals, right? Like waiting for approvals was like, Hey, can we do this and, and whatnot, you know, I was still trying to get my feet wet. And finally, Mott, the CEO called me and was like, Heather, could just go run, because that’s what, that’s what we want. We trust you enough to give you the freedom to run, we will pull back the reins. If we see something, you know, and they have like, they’ve, you know, they’ll call me and they’ll say, Hey, why don’t we do it this way? Like, kind of talk me through this, and then figure out okay, maybe that didn’t work. let’s let’s let’s maybe try it this way or not, and like a reprimand way, because it’s always like, okay, you know, we trust you, we give you the liberty to run. And so that’s really that was kind of my momentum shift when I when I started an empire because I was like, Okay, let’s run. And and exactly like you said, If something’s not working, it’s out. It’s out. And maybe we resurface that later for another artist that it does work on and it kills it. And there’s no sense in wasting time or energy, especially with as much as everyone has it going on, on something that isn’t working, or is just working kind of average Li like, No,

29:23

we want to be better, we want to be the best and make a difference. And that’s one of the things I kind of preach to my team. And a lot of people I get to talk to is basically you’ve got to have ownership, because if you don’t take ownership over this idea of this thing, then who’s gonna run fast with it, you know, it’s it’s not my job, it’s their job, but I’m just kind of helping you own this and run fast. I love that you’re, you know, organization kind of looks at it that way and says, Heather, you can do this, we trust you own it and go and execute on it. One of the other things I like to really Kind of pay attention to with people is sort of personality types. Yeah, I’ve learned a lot about it over the last few years, you know, always kind of been interested in it, but not really doubled down on it. And so as you meet people, as you talk to people interact with them in various ways. And even as you see how they interact online, right, with engaging with content, things like that, understanding different types of personalities, can much better help you create that human human connection. Is that something you’re into at all? Do you pay attention to personalities? What’s your,

30:29

my, my personality is that I think I’ve taken every personality test out there to understand I, and this is on, like you said, a human level, like, not even just work, co workers, but all the way then to family, friends. You know, I think it’s so important, because everyone is so different. And so how do we better? How do we love people better? How do we understand people better? I, it’s just, it’s so intriguing to me. I, you know, so I’ve taken every personality test, you know, I know, I’m ESTJ I’m an enneagram. Three, I’m Capricorn like, I’ve literally any test possible. I know. And so, probably to your listeners, like they heard that and they’re like, Oh, dear Lord, like, we don’t even know what to do with her. So I, but I also know, it helps me know myself better now. Okay, here are kind of when I’m in a good space. Here’s the great things about it, when I’m not in a good space here, and the not so great things about it.

31:29

Yeah. And I think that understanding that awareness of it is part of the key to it all is not only how do I interact with other people better, but how do I know myself? So that if I see this trend happening, yes, I know that that’s kind of to be expected. And here’s hopefully how I can kind of either get out of it, if it’s in a bad place, or keep it going if it’s in a good place.

31:46

Yeah, I also use it as I think one it’s not used enough in corporate culture. But I, I use it because I think it’s such a great tool for empathy, right? Like, that’s kind of your empathy trigger of, like, if you can understand someone better on their human core level, then you can understand where they’re coming from, even if you disagree. And so I think that, you know, that has been something in the last two years that I’ve really tried to dive into and figure out one for myself, but then to figure it out for all my relationships, whether it’s co workers, or friends or family, and go, Okay, how do I do this better? But if it’s not going so great, how do I not want to get personal because as a three, I’m probably going to take it, especially on a work level, I’m absolutely going to take it personal. And so it’s like, okay, I don’t want not take this personal and keep it work and understand where they’re coming from. So it doesn’t hinder or do more harm than it’s already doing. Absolutely.

32:50

And when you think about it from because I like what you mentioned that a lot of corporations aren’t doing this very well, I think more are getting into it. And it’s great to see the shift that’s happening. But when we market to our audience, what we’re doing is trying to create that human human authenticity, trying to create a perception and ultimately a persuasion. Yeah, for human behavior to to do what I want it to do, right? I mean, it almost sounds manipulative. But really, if we’re a good noble company, and we’re doing the right thing, that’s a good thing. We want them to participate in our business, whatever it is, whether it’s listening to music, buying a product, going on a trip somewhere and spending money on an airline, whatever. But we do that as a organization to our customers, why wouldn’t we do the exact same thing to our people that run the company or make the company work? And so I wish every organization in the world really would sort of stop what they’re doing, understand their people, because there people are who are influencing their customers,

33:58

we have probably one of the most diverse company cultures, and, like over 50%, female, and then all all human races, right? And my co CIO, Ghazi says he does that on purpose. He’s very intentional about it. Because he’s a firm believer, how do you know how to market to someone if that someone is not sitting in that room helping on the marketing side? You know, so it’s like, how do I with especially in Nashville, the country audience, right? majority is female. I mean, that’s your core country audience. And so that was one of the conversations that him and I had, he was like, I need I want and have to have a female in this spot that has a voice in that spot, because that’s that audience. If I had five men as a part of the Empire national team, how do I know that it’s all going to work succinctly if the audience is not represented in that. So I think that is where Probably a lot of companies that I’ve seen, and even on the, you know, music companies don’t invest a lot of thought into that. No different than like hiring young, young talent is really important, because they’re kind of the ears to the what’s up and coming. You know, I wish I was still young and would even know, you know, like my product manager, he’ll bring me stuff. And I’m like, this is like, and then you feel old. But it’s, it’s so great to have that kind of diversity with that, because it’s like, I need that, I need that push on that, because I’m not in that world at all. I’m in this one. And so so to have that diversity is is so important on a marketing level. Because how do you know who you’re talking to if there’s nobody represented in the room? Very true.

35:47

And I think we have seen a great shift in that lately. The world is catching on. And we’re starting to realize that the people at the table should represent the people in the world not make decisions for right people in the world. And that’s it. So what’s something that you maybe have learned along the way that you kind of wish you knew when you first got into this business or earlier in your, in your career, that you wake up every day thinking, gosh, this is so easy now, but back 10 years ago? I had no idea because

36:23

I i wish i and this probably just comes with age, I don’t even know if it’s even an answer to your question. I wish I’d trusted my gut from the get go. I just think early on, you just don’t know, you don’t know, you know, if you hear a song in there, like that’s a hit. But you don’t say that? Because you’re like, what is it though? Is that what all of the the executives in the room are thinking so early on? I wish I hadn’t really just listened to that honestly. And just and that’s kind of twofold to if they don’t think it is, but I still think it is then it still could be like I might be right in that situation. So I think that’s probably the one thing and not even just trust my gut on a hit but trust my eye creatively as well. And going, Okay, I know, I know when content is great. And I give my team the hardest time because they know I’m going to push back, if I get something they know now to not send me something that they haven’t already reviewed a million times, because I will probably still have edits. But I didn’t know that at the beginning. I didn’t know that. I had a great marketing. I didn’t know that that the edits that I was making, or the thoughts that I was having, that I could fully trust. And so I think I wish now that you know that I had done that, and probably could have moved the needle a little bit earlier and quicker and change some of the things but you know, hindsight is always 2020.

37:50

So, I just happen to know this about you, because I’ve known you since like we said years ago. You have been a competitive athlete. Yep. You’ve been a musician yourself. You’ve helped start and run a firm yet. And now you’re vice president marketing for record label. Yep. That’s a lot of different skill sets, and talents that are all kind of wrapped up into one one person. Have you seen a crossover of how your expertise in one side kind of comes to play in the other? For sure.

38:29

One just being competitive. You know, this industry is so competitive, this industry is so cutthroat. So having the competitiveness of being an athlete, and I still play, so I still get that little fix, it’s definitely not as intense because, you know, I need to live and survive. And I’ll probably hurt myself but and so I have to be careful on that front. But also, I think the team mentality learning how to be on a team from from the get go and that kind of transpires across all of the of the positions I’ve been in. And then even, you know, even on a very basic level of when I was running the accounting firm, a Dallas, like, one, I was like, this is fine. And all it’s what my family does, you know, every education benchmark test I’ve taken was like your scores and 99% accounting, and I’m like, that’s not where I’m going to be. And so my family is fine with that, just as on the record, so we’re on the record saying, but starting on the on the music side, and then going to the accounting side, taught me that I have both sides of that brain. And like, you know, like you had already touched on I’m not the best musician. I wasn’t the best artist, but it allowed me to now be empathetic towards my artists now. I understand how difficult that is. I understand how difficult the road is, which now they’re all pining for it so you know, it’s that’s that’s the good But then switching to the to the accounting side I wouldn’t have gotten the job for running strategy at Universal had I not had that background had I not known one the basics of how to use Excel really well and really fast. But then to just being having that analytical side to understand this is what’s working this is what’s not this is what’s happening not just in country but as across all genres. Country tends to operate behind the curve. And so if I’m watching the other genres, I can see where we’re heading to. And so it’s like okay, being pre emptive of that and not reactive to that is has been really helpful. So yeah, I mean, I would say there’s so many qualities learning how to operate as a team you know, it’s all threaded throughout is has definitely been great kind of stepping stones to where I am now.

40:57

Who would you say are some of your mentors or people that have inspired you along the way kind of given you that that you know, paved road to walk down if there is such a thing but I like to say who are your Titans who

41:10

Yeah, your life, I love that. I love that well, one I am probably the most like avid peloton owner, so I got in early before peloton was cool. And so there’s a couple instructors have their Robin, you know taught me kind of female empowerment and that’s okay. And that that your voice in the room matters. And so her over there, but then so completely different industry and and then all the way to you know, Renee Brown, who I’m a massive fan of all of her books and taught me so much just reading I’m listening to her stuff. And then in the industry, like Mike Duncan, who runs universal here in Nashville has really helped me and, and encouraged me along the way is such a great mentor to have Frank a brought up, you know, you know, just these, the people that have been in this town and then on the music side, have been around for such a long time that they’ve kind of seen every pendulum swing that happens. And knowing that one, they’re still around, and they’re still making great music, and then to kind of how to ignore some of the politics that are involved. And and kind of how to not bypass them, but not let them probably affect me more than they would I’m probably I would probably be highly more affected by some of the the politics that it requires, then had they not taught me along the way of kind of really what matters and kind of not even verbally, but just kind of how they’ve presented themselves. But yeah, so I think it kind of runs runs the gamut a little bit on on, on those,

42:54

one of the things that I find most interesting with, you know, kind of thinking through my relationship with with mentors and people that have influenced me is you learn probably more by them telling you what not to do than what to do. You know, I think we’re always looking for this step by step guide of how should I move through the situation? And oftentimes, they can’t give you that, but they can tell you what not to do. Yeah, and I think nine times out of 10 that’s the most valuable information.

43:19

Absolutely. I always say you, if you can know what not to do, that you will be successful. You know, and even even Tina, who is heads up empires, ANR, who’s, you know, she’s been around for such a long time. And like, I mean, just talk about boots on the ground has has been a part of the industry when it wasn’t fun to be a part of, but then has been a part of like incredible projects, incredible artists, and to watch that, and to and to know that, okay, I can trust her I can trust, you know, in her ears, for sure. And so just having that to be able to kind of lean on, and to hear that kind of feedback, exactly. Like you said, like, you know, because I think mentors, you need them in your current, but then also in other kind of pillars of your life, that that can kind of speak into that as well. And exactly what you said, you know, if they’re teaching you what not to do, then that’s, that’s just as important and valuable.

44:18

So every business, there’s kind of three things that boil down to kind of how a business exists in the world. And the first of those is ideas. The second is the execution of their ideas are operations and the third is their culture. If you have to rank those one through three, one being this has to be the most important thing that you focus on. What do you put at the top of the list? The first

44:42

one is easy for me all day long. I didn’t even hesitate it like as soon as you said it. Culture absolutely is most important. If you have a toxic culture, then ideas and execution are are mute. So culture for me, that’s something that empowers It does really, really well, which is really refreshing, because it’s not always done well. And so that’s been great to, to kind of be a part of that family. And so they take a lot of pride in that as as to why and so I think culture, absolutely. Because any type of negative negativity on that level is just going to kill the ideas, it will kill the execution. So that’s one, but two and three, I don’t know that I can put in an order,

45:28

you have to. Well, and this is this is an interesting conversation topic. Because if cultures number one, yep. To preserve that culture, you’re going to have idea people and you’re going to have execution people. Yeah. And they can’t always exist mutually right? So you’ve either got to have idea people, that then your operations people take and execute those ideas, or you’ve got to have your what’s possible your operations people say, here’s the framework we live in. Now, we need ideas that work within this framework.

46:00

Yeah, I don’t know that I can put one above the other though. I, I think if they’re able to operate mutually, that’s the win, right? Because it you can have a million great ideas, but nothing there to execute, then what’s the point? You can have great execution, but really terrible ideas? So then also, what’s the point? So I those feel to me, like those cultures, one, and then two, is ideas and execution? I just, I hear I hear you. I don’t know that I can pick, I think you have to have both. And if you don’t, you have to get to a place where you do. And whether that’s different people, whether that is a different structure, you have to get to that place where it is that kind of yin and yang, because if it’s just mediocre ideas that you’re executing on, you will continue to stay mediocre.

46:51

So I’ll accept that answer. I appreciate it. I wasn’t I’m no, it’s great. It’s It’s a unique standpoint on it, for sure. And I think that

46:59

Oh, no. Am I the only one that has that standpoint? Well, I can’t tell you that. No, I think everyone has to go listen to the rest of the podcast to determine

47:06

but i think it’s it’s the mentality that goes into it that says like, the value is there regardless, like they’re both equal? And I think that that’s a great way to look at it. And, you know, is

47:20

it me if I wasn’t pushing against the one, two and three anyway? Exactly.

47:26

totally understood. Moving on, I’ll lose this battle for sure. I’m not willing to choose. I don’t I don’t even know that I could, you know,

47:37

like, Oh, that’s great. I love that. And the fact that you, you have that mindset, you know, means and we’ve talked about this a little bit earlier, too, I think off off camera, or before we’re recording, but you know, kind of how you and I share this, this mindset that, you know, we kind of are the business and creative minds, we may not be the absolute best at either one. But we have to live in a world where we have both of those in our lives, and that we have jobs we have, you know, companies that we work for, or run that, that allow us to exist in both worlds. And so I think that’s a very fair existence of your kind of, you can’t have ideas and execution Yeah, one rank over the other, just like I believe you can’t have business and creative sort of out of sync, they have to both kind of come to the table with equal weight.

48:28

Yeah, yeah. I think if there’s a culture or a company that is heavy handed on one or the other, something’s going to suffer. And so finding that balance, right, which is, that’s kind of the golden ticket, right? That I don’t know, that anybody ever achieves or gets to in a company, but you have to at least work at finding that balance. Love it. Alright, so

48:53

a couple years ago, you got to spend some time in Bali, right? Yes. I want to hear about this experience, and kind of what was your What was your takeaway? Why did you go? And then how did that impact and essentially, you know, make you who you are today?

49:08

Yeah, so Bali was probably one of the most life changing experiences, I had one never been that far. And by that far, I mean, it’s almost exactly halfway around the world from Nashville. And Had I known that I would have taken a different flight path. But I would have still gone but I was taking a different flight path back because I was literally on the plane with the people that I was that I was going with. And I was watching the map on the on the flight and I was like wait a second, because you know, I’m on the plane. It gives you kind of here’s your flight overview. And we It was a 17 hour flight and to Singapore was was our second flight we had flown from Nashville to to San Francisco actually. And I was like, we messed up. We messed up. We’re flying literally halfway around and We’re not coming back. We’re not continuing that to say we flew around the world. We’re literally coming back where we came from. And I was like, missed opportunity. So hear me say now that that is the plan the next time I go, but

50:13

so for anybody listening if you’re going from America to

50:17

it well, especially in Nashville Nashville, almost exactly. Okay. Yeah. So you can you can either fly out of obviously, you know, Philadelphia or New York and in that way or you can fly out of California. So yeah, if you live in like, Middle Tennessee or equal so BNA, if you’re going to leave from if you’re leaving from BNA, take one way out of JFK, or wherever on the east, and then come back on the west, and you’ll have literally flown around the world. So very cool.

50:49

Yes. So we learned about a missed opportunity. Yes, I guess, not to start out in my life changing. Right? Yeah. So that was that was the takeaway, right? Yeah.

50:59

Yeah, that’s it. That’s a no. So Bali came about. So I knew the instructor that was teaching a yoga retreat, I’d never done yoga consistently, I’d done maybe a couple classes with my sister, I didn’t get it, I couldn’t touch my toes. And I was like, I, you know, this is crazy. But she had studied there, the instructor did had studied there, she lives there month out of every year, and was like, You guys just need to come. And I was like, let’s do it. You know, like, and that’s kind of just my personality is what I love to travel, I love to travel internationally, I’d love to see as many cultures and people and eat the food and just experience that is so important to me. And one I just kind of thrive in that I love that, that level of adventure I you know, I love seeing new places. And so it was kind of a no brainer. For me. And especially those a comfort level just because she had been the instructor had been for so long, so but I didn’t know that I would have to travel all the way around the world to find a piece of me that I didn’t know I needed. Because I landed in Bali, and it’s easily the most spiritual place I’ve ever I’ve ever been to the people are kind. But taking that trip, and learning kind of introspectively about myself, we had a whole day of silence. So the entire 24 hours of no communication. So no reading a book. I mean, we could we could journal so we could write. But if no reading a book, no talking. And that slows things down in a way that not everyone and very few actually get to experience and doing that slowing the world down. Because that’s at the time of my life. That’s what I needed. I was still universal at the time, I was trying to figure out kind of my next steps. I wasn’t in a healthy place for myself. And so trying to figure out what that look like, you know, like you leave your 20s and you get to this weird space of like, I should have this figured out, but I don’t. And so it I joke now because I’m like it took me flying halfway around the world to to find that. But that’s just how stubborn I am. And so I don’t think it requires that for most people. But yeah, I think Bali, if anything, it’s slowed, it’s slowed things down for me that I could take a look at myself and go is this who I want to be Is this the person that I want to become is the path that I’m on who and how I want to leave the world and represent that. And so it’s such a monumental moment to not only be immersed in that culture, and just the the way they operate, how kind and gracious and just out of the sheer goodness of their heart, you know, to see that it’s so different than anything in the States. And, and so to, to learn from that and also kind of let things go that I no longer needed. Right? And to kind of work through that and start that was kind of the one of the starting processes. So there was a lot of undoing right of, of kind of, hey, I’ve always operated this way, but that’s probably not the healthiest. There’s a lot of kind of introspection in there that allowed me to kind of free up myself to be okay with that and go Okay, like I mean, I wasn’t necessarily confident or and Okay, in my own skin, which I think a lot of people go through probably majority of people just nobody really talks about it. And so I didn’t know I didn’t know that that was even okay to kind of not one not be comfortable in my skin but then to to experience it on such a deeper spiritual level. There was like, okay, like, Okay. And so yeah, I will forever cherish that and we did awesome thing. You know, like, of course, I mean, we’re in Bali. So we go through the rice fields and, you know, just even learning that and we did. There’s a place called pyramids of ci so if you guys ever go to Bali, you have to do that. It’s sound healing. And so from the music side, from even the musician side, they use sound and sounds to kind of heal you, which sounds very hoovy groovy. And that was not me at all. So just hear me say that. But I think if anything, it just, it one allows you to be into it slows you down. And it’s like, okay, figuring out what our priorities, what matters. And then how do you keep doing that? Here operating? You know,

55:31

that’s really cool. I just booked my trip. So yeah, I’m going out east to get there and then coming back West. That’s right. Yeah. If you do that before me, though. That’s really cool. And I think that there’s so much to be said, for that idea of finding a way to slow down, and you can’t say, I’m just gonna take a weekend and do it, you know, I think that I’m in I’m in desperate need of that myself. I’m constantly on the go 1000 things pointing at you. But I like the idea of not even reading a book. Because, you know, when you’re ingesting something, it kind of makes your mind race, but when you’re putting it out, it sort of slows you down. So journaling and just sort of sitting within the breath.

56:18

I was I was sitting outside my room at one point, because at the time, we didn’t schedule at the retreat that I was at, which was actually the same retreat that Elizabeth Gilbert went to where she wrote, Eat, Pray, Love. And so that was fun, and really cool to kind of be a part of and kind of see that I actually watched the movie for the first time while I was packing the night before for the trip, cuz I was like, I feel like I should know this. Or at least know what I’m kind of walking into. And yeah, so that afternoon, I was just sitting outside and one it’s just blazing hot. They’re like, it’s heat, like I’ve never felt and I’m from Texas, and live in the south, you know, so I know, humidity, but I did not know humidity. And I’m sitting on and I’m just like sketching, and I don’t know how to sketch, you know, like, I literally had a pen and a white piece of paper. And that’s what they gave us. And they were like, do whatever you want with it, you know. And they didn’t even say that it was just kind of like they supplied it in your room. And so I sat outside, and I literally just sketched everything that I saw, you know, and at one point, I thought, am I going crazy, because I’m like, there was a nap kind of flying around. And and I was having an internal conversation with that gnat. And I was like, how are you not burning up, but it’s like roasting out here. And then of course, I go down the path in my brain of like, man, Mother Nature’s really amazing. Like, you’re the tiniest thing, but you don’t just crisp up like that, even though I feel like I’m crisping up out here. So, you know, just things like that, that in this world, how we operate here. You don’t do that. And so yeah, there was a little bit of like, I think I’m going crazy. And I only did it like 24 hours. Like there are some people that do weeks and days and days. And I’m like, who knows how would return after that. You know, crazy.

58:01

So did the movie do it justice?

58:05

Oh, not even close. Not even close. It’s great. I mean, don’t get me wrong. It’s great. I love Julia Roberts. It’s It’s fantastic. No, there’s really nothing that can do it justice, you know, without just just being there. So yeah, it’s it’s really incredible.

58:19

All right, we’re gonna take the show on the road. We’re gonna do a silent podcast. In Bali? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, well, we can talk in the hallway there, like 20 something. Ready for some silence? Yeah. All right. We’re rounding third heading home. I appreciate that analogy.

58:40

I figured you might. What are ways that that you personally are helping to do business better. So that can mean a lot of different things. But, you know, in a world where like you said, we’re moving so fast, we’re constantly trying to like, get ahead and do all these different things. I think there’s a lot of things that, you know, we’re figuring out as the world evolves, and we’re finding ways to do business better. So what does that mean to you? And how is Empire? How are you doing business better these days? Yeah, there’s

59:07

a couple ways. I mean, obviously, I think Empire as a whole. For a very basic level, our deals are just structured very differently. And we didn’t know kind of coming into Nashville, what, how that would be received or perceived. But from the very basic level, like we never take ownership. And so that allows the artist that has created this to always own own that content, and that that music, because that’s it’s theirs, we’re just here to help facilitate that. And that fosters a loyalty and a respect. And that continues to just kind of grow and grow. And we’ve seen that just, you know, 2020 was one of the best years, if not the best year for Empire, just in terms of growth and the amount of music and artists and great content. And so I think that on a very basic level of of just doing business better is doing right by by the artist, and right by the industry to go like, you know, we don’t take ownership of that. But we’re here to help you grow that and not only just help that artist, but there are a lot of artists that have developing artists under them that they’re helping grow. So it’s, it’s getting involved in that business on a human level to the one teach the artists the business, why they because there’s a lot of artists that don’t understand the business. And there’s a lot of artists that do, but those that don’t, it’s like, let me teach will teach you the business. And then those that you are fostering and developing, you can then kind of see the end and the business just flourishes and continues to grow from that. So I think on a very basic level, and part does extremely well. So that’s great to be a part of, I think on a on a human level on a personal level of of doing it, it’s just operating,

1:00:53

um,

1:00:56

maybe with a loyalty and a an honesty, that I’m not driven by numbers, I’m not driven by bonuses, I’m not driven by any of that, you know, not that they’re bad. But I think that that can pose an issue when it becomes You know, when that starts to become a priority. And so being not not held to that or driven by that allows a bit of a sense of freedom to then be loyal to the teams and the artists that we are in business with and could potentially be in business with.

1:01:30

I love that. Very cool. All right, moving on to our kind of final rapid fire questions. These are always fun love to hear what what people have to say, but what is your favorite book or one that you’ve read recently?

1:01:44

Favorite book? I already mentioned Renee, so probably anything by her. I just finished in the middle of 2020 I finished jen hatmaker fierce free and full of fire. That was fantastic. So yeah, I would say that right off the top of my head if we’re if we’re doing rapid fire. That’s

1:02:02

perfect, perfect. What’s your sort of systemized daily routine? What’s something you have to do every single day?

1:02:08

Oh, workout peloton every morning, it doesn’t matter what what time My day starts, I will get up. And I learned this before 2020 I was already in kind of this rhythm. So it’s funny. People were like, how did you do that in 2020. With you know, we just ended up sitting on the couch. And I was like it was already a habit. I was just lucky enough that I’d already created that habit. So doesn’t matter what time My day starts, I will get up and at least do one hour.

1:02:32

So what’s the best piece of advice you’ve either given or received?

1:02:38

I can’t answer the given because that’s still the verdict is still out. There’s probably a couple in received. One is is Frank’s of working with great people making great music with great people. I think that’s just very it seems very basic. But at the end of the day, like that’s, that’s really kind of the win for me. Yeah, I would say that one

1:03:02

limit. So you mentioned peloton being an habit you’ve formed previously, what’s a relatively new habit good or bad?

1:03:11

Oh, I’m sure there’s lots of bad, you may give you a bad. Bad. I have probably lost a lot of work life balance a little bit in 2020. You know, there’s no break, there’s no leaving the office, you’re just home. So that’s probably the worst habit is in February that I was like, ah, hold on. I’m still emailing at 830 and haven’t stopped for dinner or something like that, which, you know, leaving an office gives you that break. So I’ve had to start to become very aware of that or have started to become aware. I haven’t fixed it yet. good habit. Yeah, I mean, probably just continue like self care, self care, but always tried to say, incredibly aware, I started meditating after Bali. And that’s been amazing, it’s been really helpful. Even if it’s just a five minute a day, that taking those deep breaths, like forcing those deep breaths within your body is is so beneficial. You know, with whatever your however you meditate, whatever that looks like. Yeah, that’s definitely changed.

1:04:19

For sure. Cool. If you could write a book, what would the title be? Oh gosh, a book. Or in your case, if you can put your own billboard out in the world, what would you

1:04:33

say? Well, billboards different. I think my my book and my billboard would say two different things. My book would probably say all that to say with da da da. I think that is what I probably get the most, like, harped on about in my life, is that at the end of every conversation? I usually that’s my wrap up when I’m done with the conversation and what I’ve said what I needed to say when the when the when the meeting He’s done. It’s like art, all that to say, here’s your wrap up and we’re out. So that’s probably what the book would say. I mean, sneakers and snacks. You know, there could be lots of lots of puns in there you know? But peloton and sushi are the great thing so

1:05:16

I think what I’ve been made aware of lately is that mine would probably be real quick Hey real quick now you got me think about sushi What’s the best thing that you’ve bought in the last year? Under $100?

1:05:36

Oh, by far my whoop bracelet. Yeah, yeah, it tells me what I need to rest which is good. And then it also tells me when I should work harder so or sleep more To be honest, I I got it because I was like, I have no idea. Am I sleeping enough? Am I resting enough? You know so? Which is ridiculous. I feel like only someone with my personality would say that I don’t know of anybody else but yeah, that for sure.

1:06:00

Are you a Netflix or news consumer?

1:06:03

Netflix? Yeah. I mean, I wish I was a news consumer I’m just not i’m not

1:06:09

Hey, nothing wrong with that there’s there’s rarely anything good on the news.

1:06:13

Yeah, I see what’s trending on Twitter every day and that’s kind of the the Reader’s Digest version but anything I try and keep up with current you know, in power we have a group chat like with everyone that anything that is remotely relevant I think gets that gets fed through there. So I’ll, I’ll scroll that a little bit. But yeah, I’m definitely Netflix.

1:06:36

This may be hard for you. Okay. favorite artists? Oh musician,

1:06:41

currently to listen to because obviously live shows are out so that that helps me dwindle it down on my on my playlist right now. Patrick droney James Blake. I am Neil mellow to my core. I feel like a lot of people would think I would say country but it’s actually pretty rare. Unless it’s my own artist or potential new artists that I get. I get a ton of music sent to me and so if it’s that but if I’m just listening if I’m cooking, which is kind of you know, my relaxing time of just cooking or meal prepping or something I have on some good Neo mellow some good chill just I love a good luck chill Britpop, like, love it.

1:07:25

Last question. Talking about cooking. What’s your favorite food? What do you like to cook the most? Or where do you like to go?

1:07:31

Oh, sushi by far? Yeah, I love it. It’s weird to say being so landlocked. But there’s a couple great spots here. But yeah, I I don’t know. It took me a long time. I never had it until I moved to Nashville, after I lived in doubt, like lived in Dallas and then moved back. And I just didn’t get it. I didn’t I never had it. And then I had it. And I was like, Okay, I could eat that probably at least three nights a week. I don’t but I could for sure.

1:07:57

I think I may go to Morocco now as you should. Where’s your top? Top place in national Qa?

1:08:06

For sure. It’s in German town. Yeah, that’s my go to vote. I like Virago. But yeah, oh, cause definitely better.

1:08:14

Good to know. Yeah. All right, Heather, it’s been a pleasure. I really appreciate you taking the time. It’s so good to see you. Thank you.

1:08:24

If you like this episode of titans of industry, head to content Titan dot CEO slash podcast for more episodes or subscribe on your favorite podcasting app. And if you know of an industry Titan that’s doing amazing things. Let us know on social media or through our website so we can tell their story. Thanks for listening.

00:00

Economic Empowerment is about creating $1 where one didn’t exist before everyone wants to hire talent that is innovative, entrepreneurial, and

00:11

welcome to a brand new season of titans of industry. I’m your host, Nate Disarro. And I for 1am. So excited to be back for season two to bring you more awesome business advice, leadership principles, life hacks and interesting stories from Titans that are leading the charge in their communities. If you listen to season one, and are back for more, I want to give you a special thank you for the support so far. Thank you so much. And if you’re new to the podcast, welcome. Be sure to check out season one to get all caught up. If you’re not already, please follow us on social media at content Titan to get more content from our podcast guests and to learn more about everything that our digital production team is up to. We’ve had a crazy year like I’m sure most of you have. And we’ve had to innovate and change the ways we’re doing things as well. Also, we would love for you to share this with your friends, family, co workers, neighbors, the mailman, Uber, driver, cashier, and anyone else you think would love the podcast so that we can continue to grow this audience and inspire all types of people through these episodes. In today’s episode, I sit down with Jeff standridge, and Jeff amrhein, serial entrepreneurs, business consultants, authors and founders of startup junkie and the conductor. They tell us about the pillars of successful startups, talent, capital, entrepreneurial culture, community and enterprise engagement, the importance of having cash on hand and their focus on economic empowerment. They also talk about their best selling book creating startup junkies. Now let’s get to the episode. But before we do, our team at content Titan wants you to know that we understand the challenges business leaders and marketers are facing right now, with moving to a more virtual world. We are experts in taking human connections and turning them digital, from virtual Events and Video presentations to promotional content and advertising. We are here to help guide you through the process of staying in front of your audience and making your life a little bit easier. People tell us all the time that they are lost and don’t know what to say or do and we exist to help your business continue to move forward,

02:23

virtually.

02:24

So if you’re ready to take your business and content strategy, virtual, we’re ready to help. Let’s get your business back to business. Now, here’s my conversation with Jeff standridge and Jeff amarin. All right, well, Jeff and Jeff will refer to you as Jeff a and Jeff s. But thank you guys so much for jumping on the podcast here with us looking forward to this conversation surrounding startups. I myself, am operating a small startup here in Little Rock, Arkansas. And so to have this opportunity for me feels a bit like a free Master’s in in business education when it comes to startups. But just for sake of formality, go ahead and give us just your kind of quick 30 seconds, who you are what you do.

03:10

I’ll start the timer. Jeff sandwich. I’ll go first Jeff merace. So so I’ll see if I can keep this to just the numbers and quick. I’m a serial startup junkie by affliction not nine startups over a long career, spent time in three fortune five hundreds spent the last 13 years helping build an entrepreneurial support organization to create a venture community here in the state and I’m also an active early stage investor.

03:36

Yeah, Jeff Dandridge spent 20 years with axiom Corporation. So I come to the entrepreneurship world as an intrapreneur. Someone doing entrepreneurial things, but within the safety net of a corporate salary, started companies and managed companies on five different continents for axiom over the years, heavy into the m&a space as well, when I was there. I left axiom about four and a half years ago to join forces with Jeff amaran in the startup techie team to create the conductor in Conway, so an entrepreneurial support organization, also an early stage investor and an innovation consultant.

04:12

So no question you guys have been at this a while, you know, kind of the your way around the startup community. But I want to talk a little bit because you guys aren’t just necessarily, quote unquote, small business or startup coaches, you guys are really working towards the ecosystem of how startups in a community can really change that community for the better change the business and really change the entire country because the products that are being launched the services that are being launched, everything about starting new ideas, and bringing those to market works better when you have a great community, obviously Silicon Valley, known for its startup and tech launches, tons of venture capital but give me a an overview of kind of where the state of the industry is when it refers to startups. Here in Arkansas. Obviously, Jeff a you’re in Northwest Arkansas, Jeff Asher in Conway in Central Arkansas. But what is what is this startup community look like? What’s the state of the industry?

05:15

This Jeff amrhein. I’ll start a little bit and I’ll hand it over to Jeff Stan rich, it’s so we look at it as, as a most cost effective form of economic development and economic empowerment. It is. Sometimes I’ll say it’s the Moneyball play in economic development in that, in that creating small businesses and startups that are going to add economic vitality to your region, when you use it with local organic resources, rather than trying to attract in a new plan, or new manufacturer or a new large business, the chance of it sticking in that area, and having long term consequential positive impact is greater. And so we focused on that and all the stats bear that out, I mean, the Kauffman Foundation would tell you that something like 85% of all net new job creation comes from startup and small business. They’d also SBA would say that 99% of all employers are small business, and about half of all jobs are contained in small bit. So it matters, it matters a lot. It really is the economic backbone. And so our job is to figure out how to set the conditions provide the the sort of programming and infrastructure and support so that the communities that maybe have struggled economically in the past or that aren’t thought of as startup or small business seem can have a chance to do so.

06:39

Yeah, I would, I would agree with that, you know, I also am involved in the traditional Economic Development Center with the Conway Development Corporation. So I’m involved in the recruitment of industry to look at relocating to Arkansas, certainly Central Arkansas, and even Conway. But those are big bang hits that occur, you know, once in a while. And so this constant cadence of working to try to create a culture and a community that is conducive to entrepreneurship, not just conducive, but but encourages, stimulates and supports entrepreneurs, is absolutely critical. And so that’s where we spend the majority of our time, you know, make no mistake about it. Frontline support to entrepreneurs is the is the first priority of what we do in making sure that we don’t lose sight of actually supporting entrepreneurs, but also trying to bring the community around that as well as also part of our our mission. I love it. Yeah,

07:35

I mean, a lot of times I think we hear about so and so company. And I think right now the big company in Central Arkansas that we’re talking about is Amazon’s moving in bringing lots of jobs, lots of infrastructure. And that’s great for the economy. But what you guys are saying is you guys, forget the big businesses that are moving in or don’t forgive him. But how do we support that with

07:59

startup businesses and bring those jobs create those new jobs? In a place where those jobs didn’t exist before we’re not moving them from one place to another, we’re creating them where they didn’t exist before? That’s right. That’s that’s where in Jeff used the term economic empowerment, you know, I tend to differentiate economic development tends to be about moving jobs and in the traditional sense, and economic empowerment is about creating $1 where one didn’t exist before, right, or creating a job where one didn’t exist. And and we certainly don’t want to forget, and I know, you know, we want to do it in conjunction with with the large businesses because quite frankly, it’s, it’s beneficial to them as well. Many of the folks who start out in the entrepreneurial community, or participate in the entrepreneur community, develop skills that are coveted by some of the larger companies, everyone wants to hire, hire talent that is innovative, entrepreneurial, and what have you. And so we want to do it arm and arm with with the larger businesses as well.

08:56

The large enterprises are critical as well. And what a lot of them have realized over the course of the last 10 to 15 years is the startups and small business are not competition for talent, that’s where their competitive advantage of the future may actually reside. And so they need to build those strong bonds to the tech startup community to the small business community, because it’s going to be additive to what they’re trying to do and it will be supportive of their own competitive advantage in the future.

09:23

It can also be a less expensive or more efficient way of doing research and development depending on the company. You don’t know you had Wayne Miller on on your podcast not too long ago and, and Wayne’s very involved in the FinTech sector with his accelerator at the venture center. And and, you know, FiOS has seen value in working with these fin tech startups, because they add value back to their company. So it’s an important factor.

09:54

So are you guys are y’all seeing big businesses utilize r&d dollars to go out and fun things like the venture center, fun things like startup competitions, things like that.

10:07

Absolutely, yeah, we see it in multiple different ways. So the one, the one you identified was the FinTech accelerator, that FiOS is involved with that we’ve had the same sort of participation from the large flagship enterprises up here in Northwest Arkansas through their participation in the Korea testbed program that we’re running in the fuel AI accelerator that we’ve run where they’re very engaged as mentors. They take meetings with these companies, they advise them on how to get enterprise ready. They see I think they see the advantage of that. And it’s, it’s pretty much it’s in vogue today where all the large enterprises know they have to think like a startup and they have to be more innovative. The ones that get beyond innovation theater, you know, checking the box to say, yeah, we’re innovative and actually engage in a real way. They’re really seeing significant impact. I mean, they’re seeing new products and services piloted. They’re seeing things teed up for future acquisition. So yeah, we’re seeing that all across the country. It’s not just unique to here. That’s a, I would say a general trend.

11:14

And it’s in every sector. You know, our colleague, Jeff Stinson, yet another Jeff in the entrepreneurial ecosystem runs health tech, Arkansas. And they’ve got seven and eight or nine health care systems around the state that are that are supporting his health tech accelerator by providing opportunities for pilot programs and what have you. And we’re also seeing a rise in venture studios, right? So the combination of a startup incubator and a venture fund coming together to actually spawn new companies, and a number of household brands being involved in the actual creation of interest videos, two to two small and startup companies that solve specific problems that they have within their industry, but that also shared across across the industry.

12:00

So I want to jump into you guys. I mean, literally wrote the book on startups and startup culture, you’ve got the book creating startup junkies. Talk to me a little bit about some of the biggest things you’ve seen come out of that book. I know it launched recently. And I just wanted to kind of see what have you guys gotten his feedback, as far as what are the big takeaways people are really loving from that book,

12:21

I Well, I’m gonna I’m gonna start at this at a high level. And then Jeff will standard for getting into some of the specifics on the toolkit that that has come along with the book. But it’s intended to be as much inspiration as education. Because one of the key themes there is not just what we’ve experienced over the last 13 years in Arkansas, and creating a pretty vibrant startup and venture scene in a place where it was pretty much absent. I mean, there have been great companies built here, but there wasn’t really a vibrant, New START scene. So that part of the message is we could do it, other flyover locations can do it as well. So that’s kind of a big part of it. And then the second part of it, and there were some key themes in there about the pillars, you have to look at talent, capital, entrepreneurial culture, community and enterprise engagement. Those are kind of the four things we talked about. But I’m gonna hand it off to Jeff standards to talk a little bit about the toolkit that we put in there as well.

13:18

Yeah, we provided two, I think, very effective. tools to be able to use to produce we always talk about start where you are, you know, what we’ve seen across a number of unexpected places is when they’re trying to replicate something that someone else’s done, they fall into the trap of thinking they have to have a building. And so they literally start with a building, and they either buy one, they leased one, or in some other fashion, acquire a building, and then they have to spend 80% of their time raising funds to keep the lights on and only 20% of their time fulfilling the programmatic needs of the community. When we started the conductor in Conway in partnership with startup junkie consulting in the University of Central Arkansas, we started with an assessment to assess where exactly are we and so we say start where you are, where you need to know where you are. So we’ve created the venture ecosystem building canvas that provides community builders and ecosystem builders with a tool to actually assess the state of where they are, across those four pillars, talent, culture, community engagement, access to capital, but then also to begin formulating those into what are our top assets? What are our top supporting strengths? Where do we think we can get quick wins, and where are some of the lasting impact things we need to work on down the road? And so that’s our venture ecosystem building Canvas, and it really provides the opportunity just like startup junkie did when they came to Conway in partnership with UCA was they started with an assessment of our community and so we took that model and built it into the canvas and a tool kit that can actually be downloaded A copy of it’s in the book, but can also be downloaded as well. The second tool that we provided is okay, how do you take that information? And how do you build it into an actual 345 year plan? What’s the vision you’re trying to accomplish in your community? Start where you are, but where are you trying to go? What are the things you have to accomplish over that next? Let’s call it a five years? And then what must you accomplish in the next 12 months to get 20% of the way there? Because if you’re not 20%, of the way, there in 12 months of a five year plan, you’re off track? And then what are those key performance indicators that you that you need to be looking at on an interim basis to determine the outputs the outcomes and what have you that that keep you on track to keep it between the ditches, so to speak. So those are two very specific tools that we provide, you know, that that we have used ourselves that we have helped other people use? And we get, we get quite a lot of good feedback about that.

15:52

So basically, you created the textbook and the self help book all in one.

15:57

Yeah, I mean, that’s it. There’s academic rigor in there. It’s well researched. It’s it’s not just all sort of anecdotal. There’s, there’s a good amount of detail that talks about the state of the venture ecosystems all across the country. And it draws from some of the really insightful stuff that Brad Feld did in startup communities and startup community way. And our own experience, because we kind of grew up in this thing, in parallel with what was happening in Boulder and in other locations. So yeah, it’s very much you can read it and get inspired. And there’s specific stories in there about, about startups and startup founders, the follies of all that. And then there’s also this kind of overlay that talks about here’s a template for how to actually go do this. And and I think that, you know, we mentioned don’t build the building first part of the reason why we knew that was a bad idea is we did that, right? In the early days of the Northwest Arkansas venture scene, some folks that were really eager, enthusiastic, put together a location called the iceberg. And it was way too early to have a colocation facility here, we hadn’t really developed this is more than 10 years ago, all the programming and the workshops, the event cadence to drive people to a location. And so it didn’t last. And we should have taken, I think, more wisdom from some of the stuff that we saw in Indianapolis from Christian Anderson, who’s a guy that’s got ties to both places. He told the story of the speakeasy there and he said, Listen, we didn’t even open the doors on this place until we had 1500 commitments from people that wanted to be members. So they built the community through events and activity and that regular drumbeat, and then said, here’s the place, that’s precisely the right way to do it. And we and frankly, 1015 years ago, we learned from doing it the wrong way, at the front end.

17:46

You know, that’s, that’s a great point, I’ll tell you, I don’t know if I’ve ever told you this. Jeff, when we started our initiatives here in Conway thinking about what we wanted to do before we’d ever actually even visited with you, I believe, I made a trip to Fayetteville and actually went to the iceberg. And the lights were off, nobody was there. And the door was locked. And I walked down the hall a few steps. And there was another door and I walked in, I thought, Man, this looks really great. Nobody was there. You know. I mean, it was it was abandoned, so to speak, but it had all the stuff, right? You know, taking that one more step, we still don’t have a building in Conway, you know, at least the offices here that we use. And it’s worked great for us because we really focused on being a movement, not a building. But as a result, a benefactor emerged in Conway Corporation, which is our municipal utility. And they acquired the city hall, the former city hall, when the the mayor’s office moved over to the Federal Building. They acquired City Hall, and are in the process right now of doing a two plus million dollar renovation to City Hall. And it will become the home of the conductor named the Arnold Innovation Center. And we will be working with Conway corporation to provide all the programming so. So we didn’t start with a building we started with with an assessment that assessment turned into a movement, that movement turned into some people, those people grew. And benefactor emerged. It says, we love what you’re doing, we want to provide you a place.

19:16

And I’m assuming you guys were a step ahead anyways, because you you’ve been such a part of this stuff for so long. But 2020 gave us a whole new reason to start without a billing. You know, I mean, I think so many people just don’t even go back to their offices anymore. And and we realized through, you know, they say that wartime is the mother of innovation, and there was a war against businesses, especially small businesses over this past year, trying to figure out how do we still operate without being able to operate in a physical place. And so how have you seen the shift happened over the last 10 months to a year of especially in the startup culture, new businesses, not even Thinking about a building or a physical space?

20:02

Yeah, it was. It was scary. Obviously, it was very Darwinian, in terms of in terms of those people that were able to improvise, adapt and overcome the circumstances, and maybe jump through a digital transformation, maybe take what would have been an event oriented business and taken online. They’ve done well, they’ve done well. And I’ll tell you as as unfurl support organization, leaders, we had to go through that same transition ourselves, we had to take what was on an annual basis 250 live events and turn that into digital programming in about three weeks, when this thing first hit back in March. And so the companies that we’ve seen that have kind of rallied around that and realize this is a new set of circumstances, it’s not temporary, it may last a year or years, they’ve succeeded, they figured out how to be really innovative, how to do things, if you’re a consumer facing business, like at running a brewery, like beer delivery, as an example, curbside pickup, all that sort of omni channel stuff with direct to consumer became more and more important. So in many ways, it’s accelerated what would have happened maybe over a five or 10 year period to happen in a year for a lot of businesses. Some couldn’t make it right. I mean, they won’t make it they couldn’t kind of get their way around it. The cares Act and the PPP. funding has buoyed some businesses that hopefully will be able to make the transition, but some won’t. And so it’s been a scary time. And for us, we went from being a very high touch, face to face mentoring meetings to everything completely digital, all of our mentoring meetings are through zoom, we now have this kind of ridiculously large startup junkie, YouTube channel and conductor, online content that is available for everybody. And it’s for us, it’s expanded our reach, we get people following the startup junkies podcast and following the YouTube channel from all over the place now. So it did some good things, even though it was an awful and has been an awful situation. And I think those companies that we see that we’re able to be nimble and quick to react to the circumstances are going to be stronger coming out that the you know, the back end of the pandemic, Jeff?

22:15

Yeah, and I think Yeah, I agree. And I think those, you know, there’s a lot of these Mainstreet businesses that say, Well, you know, what I’ve tried, I’ve tried e commerce, and I’ve tried online sales, and it didn’t really work in you know, and so it’s been this kind of either or, and, and I think it’s more of a both and, you know, we have a client that we worked with, it’s in the, that’s in a pasture raised farm business and selling cuts of meat and what have you, and, and, you know, they had three or four lines of business, they had an event center, where they brought people in for actual meals that that introduced them to the farm, they had a walk in store, they sold wholesale sell to restaurants. And then a couple of years ago, they started trying to build their online presence, because most of the shipping that they were doing, they were taking analog via the telephone orders, and so they built out an e commerce business, well, COVID hits, their wholesale to restaurants is off 70%, their walking traffic is off 50% their events, business is off 100% because they had to shut it down. And their online ordering and shipping is up 11 100%. And oh, by the way, it happens to be the most profitable part of their business. So the work that they did pre pandemic to say, you know, we just want this to be a good healthy argument to our brick and mortar business, ended up being their saving grace.

23:31

And we felt a little bit like emergency room doctors ourselves, because it was triage. Every day in those, particularly in those early days trying to figure out, you know, we’re gonna have a 50% failure rate of small business and startups because the revenue just got shut off through, you know, through action of their own. And to their credit, the businesses have hung in there. I mean, the good businesses are going to be better are great. The businesses that were just kind of riding the tide of a good economy may not make it because they they might not have the management where with all to kind of get around the bend on some of these things. But anyway, yeah.

24:10

Yeah, well, and I completely feel and understand exactly what you’re talking about. I, you know, own a digital content creation company, and we’ve operated in the digital space for years. And it’s funny to just kind of watch people who all of a sudden realize how much digital presence they need to have. And we’ve been telling people that for a long time, but of course, now you see the absolute need and necessity for it. So we saw year over year increased fourth quarter of last year of 300%, from 2019 to 2020, which, you know, for us is a great increase. But, but I felt that triage mentality, like all we’re trying to do is get people into this online digital space, create digital events, virtual events, more content to get in front of their audience, because now you can’t have the in person And, you know, situations that you used to you can’t do in person sales as easily nobody’s traveling. And and that triage is a good word for it. Because, you know, would we like to have done some things better? Of course, but were we trying to literally just get people to a place where they can manage what’s happening, what’s going on and moving forward? Absolutely. And, and that forces us to get better create better systems, better operations, to handle, you know, this growth in a more sustainable way. So that’s one of the reasons that I’m really excited about this conversation. And I think so many other people in the small business community need and want to know, what do I do now? Where do I go from here? So one of the themes of this season of the podcast we’re moving into is, how do we do business better? So when you guys think about from a startup, you know, consulting and, you know, coaching side of things? What can businesses be doing right now? What can they be thinking about in order to move ahead and in a better way? How can they do business better?

26:03

The only thing required for innovation to occur is constraints. I mean, if we don’t have constraints, we don’t innovate. We don’t need to innovate. If there’s no constraint, we’re just fat and happy doing what we’ve always done the way we’ve always done it. And so, you know, what I what I like to suggest is that companies impose some degree if they don’t have constraints immediately, and everyone does. But if they don’t immediately recognize constraints start, start thinking about what if scenarios start doing some risk planning in that regard, and thinking about what if, what if the another variation of the Coronavirus comes out in it, and it shuts us down for an extended period? What are we going to do? You know, I’m involved, as Jeff said, We’re both involved in a variety of companies through investments and and I have watched the the companies that are in my own personal portfolio, and there is honest money to be made. And there’s honest business to be secured. Even in the midst of a pandemic, for for companies that want to innovate, that want to hustle that want to challenge the status quo, and want to look at better ways of adding value. You know, I had one business owner who came to me and said, You know, I really don’t want to sound like an ambulance chaser. But the services we have that we had pre COVID are just as applicable, if not more applicable than, than they were before that they are, you know, they are just as applicable now. And she said, but I don’t want to sound like an ambulance chaser or an opportunist. And I said, if you’re if the value you provide is as applicable now, in the midst of a pandemic, as it was before, you have a moral ethical obligation to tell people about it. And so I think that we can’t use the pandemic as an excuse. We don’t want to be opportunistic, we certainly don’t want to take take advantage of people, we don’t want to price gouge. That’s not what I’m suggesting. But we need to look at the value that we deliver. And if we focus on that value, we need to think about ways to tell people about their value.

28:03

Yeah, I agree. And I would say in general, most people now have a heightened sense of the importance of antifragility and resilience in your business model. And so none of us really probably aside from Jeff Stanford, she’s actually in this business, think of ourselves as being in the insurance or the risk management business. But we are I mean, you have to think about it as a business leader, you’re a problem solver and you’re trying to figure out how to mitigate risk. And so if everybody thinks about their business as if they were going to be an investor from the outside, they think about what’s this? Do we have all the right management slots filled? Is the strength of our team. How are we financially? Do we have cash reserves? Are we well enough capitalized? We have a good banking relationship? Are we over leveraged? Where it Where do our products and technology set are we are we good there? Do we need to make changes? Are we falling into obsolescence? And in finally what are what are things that are happening with the market or with the customers, and then there’s those sort of external things like environmental, legal and other kind of Black Swan event, things that you might take into consideration but constantly viewing the outside environment and your business through the lens of a risk manager looking to mitigate those things that could cause you to fail is a really healthy exercise to go through and some of the best businesses that pivoted the quickest that we saw in Northwest Arkansas were places like REITs barbecue, Jordan, right great operator he very quickly moved from a an in facility in dining focus model to one that was extremely efficient for pickup and delivery. Those companies those restaurants that made that pivot early have done extremely well now helps it has a fantastic product probably the best barbecue place in the northern half of the state by a longshot. But But having said that, he was he was very quick in in making those changes.

29:58

Yeah, and one of the things Jeff brought up And that I would say is probably the single most important key performance indicator that that affected businesses both positively and negatively positively, if they were on top of it and negatively they weren’t with days cash on hand. You know, soon into the pandemic, we saw that the average small business around the country had 27 days of cash on hand 27 days. And, you know, we talked about in our personal expenses in our personal finances, we should have four to six months. Why should we be any different in our in our business? And, you know, so understanding what your breakeven point is, and understanding how many days of cash does it take to operate your business? If you didn’t sell anything? If you stopped selling today? How long could you maintain your business before you had to shut the doors. And so companies that and entrepreneurs that understand those, what may seem to be complex dynamics are the ones who tend to succeed because they’ve got the reserves to be able to weather a storm.

31:00

So I’m going to throw this this topic out, because I know both of you guys have a very credentialed academic background, you educate all the time you teach daily, still, but you come from that environment. But, Jeff, as you just mentioned, that a lot of businesses don’t even have a month’s worth of cash on hand, I am lucky enough to have gotten a business degree in college and learned pretty early on that cash is king, of course, and without it, you can’t do anything. How do we educate? How do we continue to impart the wisdom on business owners that these basic principles are really non negotiable, to succeed to exist.

31:45

So we actually just talked about digital content, we have some digital content out there on the conductor website called managing by the numbers, where I take business owners through the five key drivers of business growth, there are two resources that I would also point people to and one is a book called seeing the big picture by Kevin cope. And it’s a it’s a fantastic book that talks about those five key drivers, and the other one is profit first, you know, we tend to think about revenue minus expenses equals profit. And, and the the profit first phenomena says, you know, profit minus revenue, or revenue minus profit equals your expenses, right? So you, you decide upfront how much money you want to you want to rat hole, so to speak, or put in the bank or you want to pull this out into a cash reserve. And then you adapt your expenses, we all know if it’s sitting in the operational checking account, we’re going to spend it. So one of the things that I do in virtually every business that I’m involved in is direct our, our business manager, the person who’s managing the banking relationships, to every week, pull out a set amount of money and put it in a cash reserve, we may have to draw back on it, you know, in three weeks, or five weeks, or seven weeks, or 12, we may have to draw some of it back out. But when we started doing that, the amount of cash reserves that we built number one, and the amount of profit distributions, the partners were able to take drastically increased because we installed the discipline of pulling cash out of the operating account and sticking it in a cash reserve for a rainy day. It’s a very, very simple process. But it is one that has been transformational. And so profit first seeing the big picture, two resources that are out there today at Amazon 10 or $12. Each, that can be transformational.

33:27

No doubt. And and I would say in addition to good cash management, having a really great relationship, most probably with a community or regional banker, because a lot of the national banks don’t really have good local support is a critically important understanding that you’re going to need an operating line of credit so that when you do get these unexpected things, you’ve got cash, maybe beyond your cash reserves that can be drawn down upon. And then again, another part of the discipline there is don’t use that for long term finance, use it for that short term operating cycle, the difference between your accounts receivable and your accounts payable to make things work or when you’ve had some unexpected circumstance that’s not going to last for an extended period of time. So those things I think that again, the good operators get better. The average operators if they if they can take some wisdom from what they see can become good. And we try to push entrepreneurs and small businesses up that knowledge chain so that they understand you can survive this, but you have to prepare you going into it with two weeks of cash is not a good strategy.

34:38

That’s exactly right. And, you know, we in all of the work that we did in the early days of the of the pandemic, we we directed people go see your banker, go sit down with your banker, your banker ought to be your quarterback because banks during the early days of the pandemic were given some some authority to be able to push payments out to take interest only To make some alterations to the loan terms in order to support those bankers, and just like when you know, in back in your personal finance when you were young and perhaps a bit irresponsible, and you got behind on a car payment, you know, you pick up the phone and you call the creditor and you say, hey, look, I’m having some issues and you work out a plan. We really saw a number of community bankers step up to being, you know, Hall of Fame, quarterbacks, so to speak for their businesses during this pandemic. And so that’s a great recommendation.

35:30

Absolutely, I mean, I know personally, I have operated since day one of opening this company that I’m always going to have plenty of cash on hand, even if I’ve never hired anybody, just so that in the event that I get into a situation that I can’t navigate, I don’t have to shut the doors of the company because I don’t have any money. But but also I set up with with my bank, I talked to my banker, before I even thought about opening the company and said, What are our options? What can we do here, knowing that I didn’t need a ton of capital to get going, didn’t want to invest every dollar, I had to buy equipment and everything to launch the business. So what we did, and this is just my personal journey on this, but we did an SBA loan to acquire the equipment needed. And then we did a second SBA, it’s technically a loan, but it’s a line of credit that operates as an interest only credit line for five years. And then the following five years, it essentially turns into a loan. So anything I don’t pay off in that first five years, it just turns into a five year loan. And for me, that’s a safety net that I will always be happy I did because even if I carry a $2,000 balance on your own paying right now is the interest on that $2,000 every month, and in the event that a second wave of a pandemic comes along at my company can’t operate. I know, I’ve got plenty of opportunity, even for the next three years, because this company is about two years old. But for the next three years, I don’t have to you know, it’s basically the SBA has been thinking about this since before the pandemic, it’s this is how you allow businesses to survive is create opportunities for, you know, cash as needed.

37:16

That’s a great point in a lot of people, a lot of small business owners, the only relationship they have with their bank is an operational checking account. They don’t have a relationship with a banker who can help them craft and architect banking solutions for them. And so I you know, to your point, you know, you sat down with your banker and said, What are my options, many small business owners don’t have that level of relationship. So I would implore them to, to find out their commercial banker at the bank, where they bank form a relationship with that person, and sit down with him and talk about their their the the operating accounts that they have the amount of cash that they move through their business on an annual basis, if you have an operating history of any kind. With a bank, there are banking solutions that they can bring to the table that can create that safety net and can help you mitigate those risks that my partner Jeff amaran spoke about a couple of moments ago.

38:14

not to go too far in the weeds on the banking side. But you know, I operate with three separate accounts, I have my operational account, a tax account, so I can hold that tax money and know exactly where it is, and that I’ve got it put away. And then I just have what I call a net account or profit account. So essentially, everything that I will need to look at every day and figure out how am operating moving into a separate account. And like you said, move it back as needed. But I’ve heard of people having up to seven accounts for a small business and just keep kind of separating that that revenue. What do you guys recommend on that front? I mean, is there a right or wrong way? To do this? And obviously depends on the business you’re in?

38:53

I think you’re right. I think it depends. I don’t I don’t have anything that I recommend, other than, you know, certainly you have your operating account, I do think a tax account for for small businesses, particularly solo entrepreneurs is a good strategy. And then that cash reserve if you’ve got those two or three accounts, that’s kind of the base basic minimum. You know, you can also have an investment account as you can, you know, if you want to, if you want to take that cash reserve, and you want to put it in something other than just a savings account, so that it’s earning a little more income, you can certainly look at at something like that. But But those three are a great starting point. And I would I would venture to say that many small businesses don’t have those three.

39:36

Well, this is certainly the less sexy part of startups and you know, getting businesses off the ground and succeeding but it’s vitally important, right. And I was also advised early on. There’s there’s two things that will make or break your success as a startup and it’s a good accountant and a good lawyer. So if you don’t pay attention to the things that can get you in trouble, real quick Then then chances are you’re gonna find yourself in muddy water pretty soon. I’m a big proponent of metaphors and how you know, especially in the business community how things work. So, sure you guys familiar with Reed Hoffman, but He always talks about entrepreneurship is a lot like jumping off a cliff in assembling the plane on the way down. And, you know, so Jeff, so as you mentioned earlier, kind of knowing your constraints, and that’s how you innovate. What do you guys use as far as sort of explaining or creating a metaphor for what you do and how you work with companies?

40:37

Well, you know, it depends. And a lot of it, a lot of it, there is storytelling about it. I mean, there’s a few things that are kind of fundamental businesses never gotten in trouble if they figured out a way to keep revenues out in front of expenses. Right? I mean, if you build and you don’t see that there’s a lot of mythology that comes from Silicon Valley, that’s all about, raise it and spend it as quick as you can and gain market. And that works 1% of the time, and the rest of the time, the companies fail, and they completely pancake. So telling the stories of you’re not going to get in trouble if you have revenues out in front of expenses. In other words, if you got contracts, or you get customer commitments, before you incur the expense, you’re gonna, you’re going to be better off. I mean, it’s things like that, that we say. And I would also say, if you want to be successful in a business, you got to realize that your talent and your team is your number one asset. So don’t overlook that build a winning culture, have the people on board that are better and smarter than you the A plus talent, you’re gonna have to pay them, you’re gonna have to reward them. But your job as an entrepreneur or small business leader, is to build that team that’s going to do amazing things. And then you got to take the greatest gratification from watching them do those amazing things. So there’s a lot of time that we spend on talking about team and culture, and the importance of that number one asset and why it matters so much its product, and great ideas can be a commodity, a fantastic team is a real asset. So we do a lot of storytelling around that kind of stuff. And contrast, this is what a great team was able to do because they had a really strong lasting culture. How did you know there were a great team, the churn rate was low, and everybody wanted to work there. This is what another team that maybe had an authoritarian leader that was maybe concerned or threatened by having really great talent dead, there was a churn rate was very high, and they never quite got down the road. So I mean, we tell a lot of stories like that. And we tend to sanitize, if you will, to protect the innocent, because we’ve seen 1000 entrepreneurial stories a year now and what we do, and given that base of knowledge, it’s a lot about storytelling, and drawing from the good examples and setting in telling people what to avoid based on the bad examples.

42:52

Yeah, we do, we get to tell a lot of anecdotes, as opposed to just relying on metaphors, right. But one of the metaphors that I do like to use, you know, I grew up, taking family vacations by automobile, never traveled on a plane until I went to basic training as a young adult. And so, you know, we would get in the car, and we would go places, and we would have that roadmap in front of us, you know, and if, if we were and we never drove to New York, but the metaphor I use is, if I were planning a trip to New York, I wouldn’t just get in my car, and drive east until I saw big water and then turn last right that I wouldn’t do that, right, that’s what I would do is I would, I would map out meticulously when I get to this intersection, I’m going to turn this direction. When I get to this intersection, I’m going to turn here, and we know the general heading that we’re going but we also know the turn by turn instructions, because if we get to a detour, and the detour has us go the opposite direction for a period of time, we know that we’re off heading, and we’ve got to get back to where it is that we’re ultimately going to go and trying to get trying to arrive. So we use that metaphor a lot for talking about how to build out your strategic growth plan. What is the vision of the company? Well, the vision is New York, we want to be in New York, what are the long term targets? Well, it’s the it’s the heading that we’re on and the milestones along the way, we’re going to drive this many miles by this day and this many miles by that day, we’re going to stay at this hotel, we’re going to stop off and have lunch at this park or this roadside look out or what have you. And then the and then the 12 month or the short term goals are those turn by turn instructions, or turn by turn directions. And so I use that metaphor a lot and talking about how to build your, your strategic growth plan and then your key performance indicators, you know, tire pressure, how much gas we got in the car, what were the gauges, the temperature gauge on the car or pressure, you know, etc.

44:33

The metaphors are really important and kind of getting back to the creating startup junkies the book and some of the story there. One thing that Brad Feld Feld said, and I’ll weave this into a metaphor that I’ve used repeatedly is that you have to realize that entrepreneurs are the keystone species. And if you know biology, you may understand what that is that the entrepreneurs have to exist. The rest of us who have been entrepreneurs or investors were kind of the supporting Cast, you can’t sort of in an authoritarian way, dictate that there shall be innovation and entrepreneurship, it has to be led by the entrepreneurs. And so the metaphor that I often use is, if you wanted to be an astronaut, you would want to have your instructor not be somebody that had spent his entire career in the simulator. But somebody who had actually flown the shuttle or or landed on the moon or whatever, somebody who had actually done it. So these ecosystems in order to be effective, have to be led by the people who have done it, it’s got to be by people that have that have gone on the moonshot that have actually experienced the ups and downs of and the risk associated with it. So that’s another one that we use frequently. And a lot of times, we’ll get pushback from that, and particularly in academic settings, because this is you need the PhDs to do the core research and whatnot, you also have to have entrepreneurs in residence like Jeff standridge, and myself who have actually built businesses have had success, have seen failure, all that kind of stuff. And so that’s another part of this that I think is really kind of central and key to building an effective startup ecosystem got to have the entrepreneurs out front.

46:13

That’s the absolutely, I’ve been a big fan lately of Donald Miller and what he’s doing in Nashville, I don’t know if you’re familiar with with his business story brand. And then he just launched a new book called business made simple, but, you know, he essentially is taking what he did from zero to 10 million, and he’s giving you the play by play. He’s essentially educating his audience because his whole mission is to grow the middle class. And how do you do that by growing small business. So he’s giving you this playbook to a keep things simple, because business can be complicated, but like you said, Jeff s, you know, you really just mapping it out, we can all drive from point A to point C, we just have to map it out and take the time to get there. But but but I love his analogy about the airplane and how he’s kind of talking about the different parts of the plane. So I think there’s a lot of value in that. But another guy, Jeff, a, that you were talking about culture. There’s a guy in Nashville, as well as a client of mine, that’s a kind of niche advertising agency. He wrote a book called worth doing wrong, and he’s talking about culture. And he said, it’s so important that it’s worth doing wrong. And, you know, he lists out probably three or four pages of single spaced bullet point items of different culture, building things that he’s tried, some have stuck, some haven’t. But he kind of, again, is talking about the importance of, if you don’t create that culture, you’re gonna have that tumultuous internal turnover and you just can never get everything firing on all cylinders. But as we kind of wrap things up, guys, I like to do a little rapid fire kind of get behind the personal side of who you guys are what you what you like to do. So let’s start just real quick answers. But what’s the best or latest book that you’ve

47:52

read? I’m reading business make simple.

47:54

Yeah. And so, and this has been out for a while. But the third wave, written by Steve Case is one that that I’ve enjoyed. appreciate his journey.

48:04

What about daily routines? What’s something you have to do every single day?

48:09

Make the coffee and let the dogs out?

48:13

More morning coffee. That’s what I was gonna say.

48:15

Are you guys more news or Netflix? Huh?

48:19

Netflix these days? Total bender on? Yeah.

48:24

Yeah, I’ve become way more of a Netflix person in the last six months or so than I ever was.

48:31

Yeah, best piece of advice you’ve ever given or received?

48:36

pass along all the credit and take all the blame as a leader.

48:41

You know, I have to share one that I hear frequently from my partner here on the on the podcast is assume positive intent until proven otherwise.

48:52

Hmm. I like that a lot. The pandemic has created a lot of new habits in people do you guys have any newly formed habits that you’re either proud of or can’t wait to get rid of?

49:07

I’ve actually driven my cycling miles up considerably over the course of the pandemic. So last year, I I had a decent year cycling but 2019 that is but in 2020 you know, I was able to almost double that and so and on track to double again in 2021. So yeah, that’s that’s a new routine that I’ve I’m pretty pretty excited about

49:33

gave me the opportunity to be a semi professional lumberjack around our place. Because I spent so much time working from home so I became one with the chainsaw on an axe for sure. There you go.

49:45

I love it. What’s something that nobody knows about you?

49:52

Wow, I hate crab Rangoon. Sorry.

49:59

I don’t know if I can I don’t know if I can use the nobody but but a few people know that my high school career dream was to be a rodeo clown. My wife will tell you that I cheat. My wife will tell you I cheat half of it.

50:13

I’m just gonna say you’ve got quite the opposite direction. Well, the last one would be and this is going to be your final plug for the book here. But if you wrote a book, what would the title be? So how about what what book did you write? And where can people get it?

50:28

Create creating startup junkies? Yeah, that’s it. It gives the pathway for people to build sustainable venture ecosystems in unexpected places. So that’s it. And it wouldn’t happen without the mentorship and leadership of my business partner, Jeff standards, no doubt about it. He’s accomplished author, and I’m a newbie, so it’s been a fun journey to get to get it done.

50:50

And it’s available wherever you buy books.

50:53

I love it, guys. Thank you so much. Y’all have been a real pleasure to talk to and I know personally, I have some some massive takeaways from this. And I know the work you guys are doing is benefiting so many people. So really appreciate the time and look forward to catching up again soon.

51:09

Thanks. Thanks.

51:09

Thank you very much. Our pleasure. We appreciate you.

51:14

If you like this episode of titans of industry, head to content Titan dot CEO slash podcast for more episodes or subscribe on your favorite podcasting app. And if you know of an industry Titan that’s doing amazing things. Let us know on social media or through our website so we can tell their story. Thanks for listening