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037 Capt Aimee "Rebel" Fiedler | Titan of Military Aviation

In this episode, host Nate Disarro geeks out about fighter jets with his guest, Captain Aimee Fiedler, callsign Rebel.  Rebel was told by an Air Force instructor early in her training that she would never be a fighter pilot, but she quickly overcame adversity and is now the Commander of the F-16 Viper Demo Team, showcasing the ability of one of the toughest fighter jets in the world for millions of people each year.

She talks about becoming a pilot at a young age and having to overcome challenges in fighter school, her path to the Air Force, and how she ended up with, in my opinion, the coolest job on the planet getting to max perform a fighter jet every weekend. She also addresses being a female fighter pilot and what that looks like from both inside the military as well as the general public's perspective. This is a topic that you might hear a lot more about in the coming months as we are working on a big project around this topic.

Anyone that knows me personally likely knows I am a huge fighter jet fan, so this was a particularly fun interview. It’s a little longer than some of these episodes and I think its definitely worth listening to the end.

Episode Transcript:

When the Air Force trains, they have their pilot training down to a science. I mean, it's what we do in the Air Force. So Air Force training is like a year of your life. This is what your first six months look like. This is what your second six months look like. Here's where we expect you to get in that matter of time, and you're either going to need it or you're not. In this episode, I get to geek out about fighter jets with my guest Captain Amy Fiedler callsign rebel. She talks about how she became a pilot at an early age. Why she was told by an Air Force instructor early in her training that she would never be a fighter pilot, and how she quickly overcame adversity and is now the commander of the F 16 Viper demo team, showcasing the ability of one of the baddest fighter jets in the world for millions of people each year.
This is such a fun interview for me as I get to talk to someone who has, in my humble opinion, the coolest job on the planet, getting to max perform of fighter jet every weekend in different cities around the country. But it's not an easy job. And rebel also addresses being a female fighter pilot and what that looks like from both inside the military as well as the general public's perspective. This is a topic that I'm really interested in and something you might hear a lot more about in the coming months as we're working on a big project around this topic.
I'm a huge fighter jet fan. So this interview was a little longer than some but I think it's definitely worth listening to the end.
Before we get into the episode, I have people ask all the time, what exactly are company content Titan does. To put it very simply, we help businesses, nonprofits, entertainment, and educational networks tell their story, primarily through the use of video content. We've been very fortunate to be named Best Production Company, and we've won awards for our work. But what really fuels us is getting to travel the country and work with all kinds of people and organizations, helping them craft and produce really compelling stories. If that's something we can help you with my team and I would love to talk. Now here's the episode with Captain Amy Fiedler. Callsign. Rebel.
Cap, Captain Amy Fiedler, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast, I'm really looking forward to this conversation. I think it's going to be one of my favorites than I've ever had, first of all, but second of all, I just think that the job you have is is one of the coolest jobs out there. So I'd love for you to just kind of give me some background. How did you get into this whole world of aviation? Yeah, well, it's great to be here. Great to talk to you, Nate. You know, how I got into aviation starts from the time I was a child, I was super interested in being an astronaut. So as a kid, I was the nerd who rented astronaut books from the library. And actually, I read in a book that military pilots have a good chance at becoming astronauts. So I kind of had my sights set on that at a pretty young age. And I was lucky I grew up close to Randolph Air Force Base. So we actually had, you know, active duty Air Force members that attended our church. And so, you know, I was kind of around that world. And then I ended up getting a scholarship through the order of today, aliens, the San Antonio chapter, and they pay for your flight training up until your first solo, so they typically award it to kids, either in high school or college. And then it's kind of like a camp, like you go to ground school for about a week, and then they send you to start flying, and they will pay until you solo or up to 16 hours. So I did that when I turned 16 years old and pretty much was sold ever since I you know, I went on my first flight and I came home and told my parents, oh my gosh, if I can't be a pilot, like if this isn't going to be a career, I just want to live close to an airport. I just loved the environment. I loved all the planes. I liked the noise, which bothers a lot of people. But I don't know there's there's something magical about it.
That's awesome. So you essentially became a pilot around the time you were learning to drive. Is that right? Or kind of in that ballpark? Yeah, definitely. So I had just learned to drive. I just gotten my driver's license because I actually was driving myself to my flight lessons. And my parents were nervous about it because I was driving to San Antonio outdistance an airfield on highways and things. So they were they were like, a little bit nervous to let me drive all the way there by myself. And then I think it was either my dad or my mom was like, well, she's going she's driving there to fly a plane. So I think she'll be okay. But yeah, I was young. I was 16 at the time. That's cool. And then I understand to you're quite the athlete, right. So I'm curious how you kind of took you know, a lot of people that ended up becoming a pilot determine, you know, as a teenager determined either I want to go into the military or I'm gonna go be a commercial pilot, so I'm gonna start working towards that, but what was your kind of next path? What What led you to, ultimately where you chose to go to college?
Yeah, that's a great question. And honestly, you know,
I don't know if you believe in God, but I do. And I feel like he definitely directed my path to where I am now. Because I really owe all the credit to someone looking out for me because I went through this process, completely uninformed and very ignorant, honestly. So if I could go back and tell myself one thing it would be, give more information, you know, I was just going through life with my 18 year old wisdom making huge decisions, and it ended up working out. But you know, I was I was going on, I was getting recruited by the Air Force Academy for soccer. And I ended up attending the college just to check it out. And my sister had gone to the Naval Academy, so I thought, I knew what I was getting into with Academy life and things, but the Naval Academy, I don't know, if you've been there in Annapolis. It's beautiful, majestic. I mean, it's on the water. And it looks like so historic in Hogwarts, and it was so cool. And then I go to the Air Force Academy, I think in my brain, I was expecting something similar. And it's completely different. It's up in Colorado, on a hill, it's a little more modern looking. So more metal building, I don't know, it was very different from what I was expecting in my head. And ultimately, you know, I came home from that visit, and there was something just missing I, my heart wasn't in it anymore. I was a little confused about if that's what I really wanted to do. And, you know, I set my sights on this since I was in sixth grade, I'm gonna go to the Air Force Academy and play soccer be a pilot. Well, I came home and my mom is the one who called me out about it, I was still working on my application congressional nomination. And she said, Hey, I've never seen you drag your feet on something you want to do. So what's going on? And I just broke down because I thought I had given myself no other options. It was the academy or bust at this point, or that's what I thought. And so I told her, you know, I don't really think I want to go there. But I really have no choice. And so she said, you know, let's just look at other options. And it's a long story. But eventually my recruiting package ended up at South Dakota State. And I get a call from the coach asking me if I want to come on a visit up there. And, you know, my initial thought is South Dakota. You know, I had family in South Dakota. But did I want to live there? Absolutely not. And so my mom, again, very wise woman said before you say no, let's just do a Midwest tour will go up and look at all the schools in the Midwest. And so we did that. And I went to SDSU and just fell in love. And aside from just loving the team, I love the soccer coach. I love the school. He tells me in our interview, he goes oh, yeah, um, I saw on your Player Profile, which kind of acts like a resume, you know, it's a one sheet with scholarships you've received and things. Because I saw you like to fly. We have a great aviation program here. And I when I tell you, I didn't even understand that general aviation was a thing. I didn't even understand the general aviation was the thing. So like I said, my 18 year old wisdom was lacking. But I went over and talked to the program manager. He said, Yeah, no problem. You can play soccer and fly. So I signed on the dotted line and ended up at South Dakota, to play soccer and major and aviation.
That's amazing. Well, I used to live in Denver. And I mean, I can say for one that giving up the Rocky Mountains is a hard thing, regardless of how the school works. But yeah, you ever regret that decision? I mean, is that was that the right path for you? Yeah, looking back, you know, I have no regrets it. Like I said, I think there was someone looking out for me kind of directing my path, even in ways that I didn't understand at the time, but I would, I would not go back and change a single thing, including doing ROTC because I didn't know what ROTC was. I had never looked into it. And so, you know, I did get approached I think it was my sophomore year, one of the ROTC people asked me, Hey, would you be interested in doing ROTC, you know, you're flying. And again, in my ignorance, I'm like, I'm trying to pay for school. I'm working for jobs. I'm playing soccer. I'm flying like, there's no I don't have time for ROTC or whatever. You're calling yourself, you know, I just completely missed, you know, I kept missing these marks. And it wasn't until you know, down the road when I started working at the Naval Academy as a flight instructor that all the sudden it hit me like, I've missed, I would, I thought all my chances, you know, and I kept, you know, I thought I'd settled with the fact that I wasn't going to fly military. And then turns out, hadn't settled with
me. I had not made peace with it, because then once I found out about officer school, I was starting my application the next day.
So let's get into that because I think I heard somewhere that your path was a little bit unconventional again, you
decided not to go Air Force Academy played soccer in college, and then ultimately still weren't quite sure about going Air Force route, right? So right after college, or were you reset at that point? Well, so I It wasn't that I had been decided not to go Airforce. I went actually visited the Sioux Falls Guard base where they fly F 16. And they kind of explained to me a little bit of the process, they basically said, you're going to leave for two years to go through all this training, and then you'll come back, and you'll fly for the guard. And so that was the first time, you know, I even understood that, you know, maybe there was still an option for me out there to do Air Force. And then
when I moved out to Annapolis, and I was instructing out there, we had a lot of Andrews guard guys, come work with us to get there. ATPs. At the time, when I was there, I was the only instructor that could teach instructors. So I was working with all these guys who were switching over to General Aviation, or maybe trying to, like add their CFI ticket on top of what they were doing at the Guard base. And so they had talked to me to you know, hey, why don't you just come fly for the guard. And it was when they started asking me that that, you know, again, in my ignorance, I'm like, Well, if I join a Guard base, then I'm kind of stuck here. And I am, I wanted to see everywhere. So I'm like, I loved living in Texas, I loved living in South Dakota, I loved living in Annapolis. And so I didn't really think I was ready to settle down in one specific location, just to do a job. And then that's kind of when I revisited the idea of going active duty. And then once I found out about officer school, it was okay, I haven't, you know, blown all my chances, I can still apply and see if we can make this happen. So that's when I that's when I made the decision. And it wasn't, you know, I was working for the Naval Academy. Yes, but because we were working with both navy and air force pilots, really, there was a there was a difference in the way the pilots, you know, approach training. And it was just a different environment. And I seem to more aligned with the Air Force way of thinking about aviation. So really, when it came to making the decision on which branch, it was an easy decision, I'd always been interested in the Air Force, but I was Air Force all the whole time I wanted to be Air Force. And then it just kind of solidified that when I was working with Navy pilots and my old boss in Annapolis. He's still out there. He's a marine F 18. Guy, retired, obviously. And he was pushing me towards Marines go Marines go Marines, you can fly the the new F 35. And nothing sounds less appealing to me than being stuck on a boat. So I knew Navy was not for me.
So I'm curious to break that down just a little bit. There's the sort of short version but you mentioned you were more appealed towards the Air Force way of flying, and maybe what what does that mean it?
Yeah, so um, I say this with all the respect in the world for the Navy pilots. But I did notice a difference in the fundamentals that we're working on. So again, this was coming from my general aviation experience, specifically, and I was teaching instructors. So multiple Navy guys, multiple Air Force, guys were coming to me to work on their instruct, like their CFI ticket. And with the Navy guys, I was noticing that and this is not this is just my personal opinion, it is not fact or anything. But I think the way they train is less efficient when they're going through their initial training. And as
much training as you go through after you finish pilot training, those years that you spend in pilot training, really build the fundamentals. And they really build the basics. And if you skimp on the basics, they come back later to haunt you. And when the Air Force trains, they have their pilot training down to a science, I mean, it's what we do in the Air Force. So Air Force training is like a year of your life. This is what your first six months look like, this is what your second six months look like, here's where we expect you to get in that matter of time, and you're either going to meet it or you're not. Now when the Navy trains, it's not what the Navy does. It's not their main focus. So their pilot training can span from anywhere a year to two and a half years. Like some guys, you know, because they're not, it's not the main thing that they do. So sometimes their pilots take a backseat. And because if you're spreading it out like that, you just don't get the repetition. You don't get the you don't get a beat into you as much. And so that was something I noticed when I was working with them. You know, now we're in a GA aircraft where we can't cheat or we can't cheat because we don't have the power. You can't cheat because you don't have you know, the Get Out of Jail Free card. We don't have ejection seats. We don't and so it really does force you to go back to those basics and really
elbows down. And I watched the different struggles that the branches had with that. And, you know, sometimes it was just a simple aerodynamic principle that you don't ever think about as a fighter pilot. And now that I'm on this side, I go, Oh, yeah, that takes a lot of mental energy to take yourself out of, we have Get Out of Jail Free cards in these jets. And when you don't have that anymore, it really is a mindset shift. And so I just watched a different struggle that happened with that. And so I really, really liked the way that Air Force approached the training and how they had it show. You know, it's not, it wasn't just the stamp, stamp, stamp your pilot, and I'm not saying the Navy's like that either. But because it was so much more regimented, and so much more efficient. It seemed like their pilots were able to go back to those basics that they learned years ago, but they still like the knowledge still existed. We maybe just had to exercise that muscle a little bit, but it was coming back quicker for them. Makes total sense. Yeah.
So many more questions, but we're gonna move on. Right.
So.
So you ultimately, here you go into the Air Force. I'm just curious. We can talk about the steps along the way. But I'm curious kind of what, what your biggest hurdle was or what your biggest challenge was, that ultimately got you to where you are today? Oh, biggest challenge for me IFF, Intro to fighter fundamentals. And I think I struggled in that program for a couple different reasons. First of all, you know, I make it to pilot training. And almost everything we were doing initially were things I had done before, I knew how to navigate myself around, I knew how to you know, at least I understood the power versus you know, the stick and rudder things, I understood the concept. So learning how to execute came fairly easily. I'm not saying I didn't have my challenges and pilot training, but it was not. I didn't struggle as much as I saw some kids who came in and had never flown a plane before struggle, which Thank God, I mean, that's what I spent 1300 hours doing before I got there, right? It was challenging, you know, to learn the differences in how the airforce does things versus general aviation. I remember my instructors in pilot training, were just losing their minds over how I talked on the radio. They're like, yeah, you're not an airline pilot. What are you saying? Like, like, you have to tell them. Good morning, Robin. Good morning, we're flying like shut up. So you know, I struggled with that a little, you know, there's just some little differences. And then of course, when I started flying the T 38. It was the first time I'd ever flown with something not in front of my face, there was no spinning prop. And that was a wild experience. I'll never forget my first takeoff in a jet engine. But
it really wasn't until intro to fighter fundamentals, because now all of those basics are resumed. So I got the easy part out of the way. And then injured a fighter fundamentals was all things that I had never learned before. never even thought about before. Now we're looking at dogfighting, we're looking at
you know, bomb dropping and all these things. And I, the T 38 is especially difficult to fly in IFF because it's not built to fly the things that they're asking us to fly. And I was very frustrated that because I could understand what I wanted to do. But making the jet do what I wanted it to do was a different story. And also the T 38 is very G sensitive. I overdid that aircraft. More than I would like to admit.
I just couldn't like like I just loved you know, I liked pulling G's, but it also wasn't something like a physically I was able to withstand the GS. So, you know, some people would back off if they felt like the G you know, they are like, Oh, the G string is getting harder, like I'm pulling too much. And I'm like, let's go. So I overdo the T 38 several times, which was a frustrating thing to do, because it automatically means you don't pass that ride. And
I had a couple of other hurdles that happened during IFF. But, you know, I had some medical stuff come up. So I got taken out of the program for almost six weeks, four to six weeks. So I took a pause kind of in the middle, which was frustrating because I just felt like I was starting to, to get where I wanted to be and you know, we're all we're all perfectionist. So when you're bad at something, you want to fix that and get good at it. And I felt like you know, the syllabus is so quick. You can't even if you're passing the ride, you don't feel like you're up to the standard that you want to be up to. And so I just I struggled through the program, honestly, and I thankfully had some really really good instructors there to tell me Hey, um,
Like, you're, you're doing better than you think, or don't get down about it, you know, or, you know, hey, we understand overdoing the T 38. Like you're gonna get there. And so I really had good instructors there to help me get through. And then I had other instructors who were convinced I wasn't, I didn't have what it took to be a fighter pilot, I straight up had an instructor tell me that, you know, he flew with me one time. And this was still early on in the syllabus, it was my fourth ride in the syllabus, and we came back and his debrief to me had nothing to do with flying, he said, he had a perception of me as a person and a pilot, I was did not have the personality to be a fighter pilot, and I was never going to make it in the fighter world. And he was pretty much going to assure that I didn't get into the caf. And so, you know, I was dealing with that,
you know, that instruct you, that's a small program. So any one instructor having that opinion of you can really set you back. So I was fighting that perception that he had of me throughout the program. And I was really, I was really down during that program. And I was honestly, considering, like, Did I make a mistake? And do I even want to be a fighter pilot, you know, this is how it's gonna be. I wasn't even sure if I really wanted to be a fighter pilot anymore. So that all changed. Obviously, I remember, I remember the first day I showed up to the F 16 squadron that I was going to train at for B course, and it was a breath of fresh air, it changed everything. And then, you know, now, I kind of look back and I'm like, I can't believe I let one person kind of let me doubt myself as much as I was doubting myself. Because, you know, every pilot, no one's perfect. We're all going to struggle, we're all going to have to work through adversity. And you know, we're not going to be good at everything right away. So kind of learning how to work through when you're not meeting the standard. And when things aren't going well, you know, you're either gonna stand up and fight, or you're gonna give up.
Well, I love that. And I think that there's so many lessons to be learned there. I think so many people, no matter what job or industry you're in, there's always going to be that one person that we kind of sit there and we're like this, this person sucks. Let's be honest, I can't stand them. They keep saying these things that make me start to believe maybe it's true. And then as soon as you get out of that environment, all of a sudden, you realize, no, that's them, not me. And yeah,
yeah, I love to see that that's something you were able to kind of quickly get past. Well, it's one of those things to where you can see the difference in, you know, when I was in IFF, some of the instructors approached it with
like, they they weren't afraid to tell you that they weren't that you weren't meeting the standard. But they weren't looking to help you meet the standard, they were treat treating it as a wash out course. And while I was in IFF, I watched five other people wash out of the course and not get the jet that they are never get to the fighter community. So they were treating it as a washout course. And so the instructors instead of saying, hey, here are your weaknesses, how are we going to get through them, they were here, your weaknesses, goodbye. And that changes once you get to be course like now once I made it to the F 16 community,
that just the way they instruct changes, because now they're like, you know, it's not a wash out program, people do wash out, but they are trying to build you into the wingman that they need you to be. So they're not saying here's your weakness, get out of here. There's a here's your weakness, and here's how we're going to help you fix that. And so your mindset changes when you have instruction like that. Because if you feel like you're, you know, on the hook for getting washed out, and they're gonna knit like, whatever, you're so afraid of making those mistakes. You're so afraid of it. And I can tell you, this happened to me in IFF, where I overdid the T 38. I was terrified. I was terrified of overdoing. And so then I'm not pulling enough t. So now I've overcorrected. And then there's now I'm not aggressive enough. And, and I was just always, I was never, I didn't show up to any flights, confident in the way I've been used to being confident where sure I'm going to make mistakes, but we're going to get past them because I would come back and it was, you know, I was so worried about all those little mistakes I had made. Rather than you know, I still make mistakes all the time. And I was making mistakes when I was going through the course. But the mentality was different. It was okay, I made this mistake. But I also recovered from this mistake. And, you know, this is what we did after we made the mistake. And so the the instruction changed and the mindset changed. And I was approaching all of my sorties the confidence level I had in the course versus IFF changed everything because I you know, I wasn't so worried about making the little mistakes that I was making more mistakes. You know, I just accepted that mistakes. Were going to be part of it and moved on. So it definitely changed. Yeah, I remember early on when I was taking some
Some management courses, I learned a system of sort of critiquing that I've used ever since. And you never forget it. And it's called the what? Why technique. And basically, it's, here's what you did wrong. Here's what you should do. And here's why you should do it this way. And it's a very simple approach to both. How does this benefit the team? But also, how's it more encouraging than just saying, here's what you did wrong by you know, let me Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. It's awesome to hear that the that that is the way it's done, essentially, once you kind of get into the right environment. Yeah, for sure. All right. So you mentioned go to the B Corps F 16. Was that always kind of the aircraft that you wanted? I heard at one point, there was an opportunity to maybe fly an F 35. Was the F 16. Always your your bucket list? Again, so I think God played a part in this as well. I didn't really know I, you know, I idolized the F 22. When I was growing up, and I had posters of it. I thought it was so cool. Yeah, it's the coolest plane. And I remember telling one of my T six instructors, or we went out and flew a low level, and we came back and he was like, you know, what do you want to fly? I'm like, I think I have to do to school. And he goes,
can you just tell me how much fun you had flying a low level? I'm like, yeah, like, yeah, I have 20 twos hanging out high. Like, maybe you should reconsider what you want to fly. And so again, you know, I hadn't really been thinking about it, I just thought, you know, oh, this is cool. And, of course, fifth Gen aircraft were pretty new, or like, you know, the F 35 was almost brand new when I started
putting out my list of things I wanted. So I don't know if the way if you know about the way it works, but basically, you track select right into either the T 38, which is the fighter bomber track, or T ones, which is the cargo airlift track. So I tracked to t 38. But the danger in tracking T 38 is that, once you fly the T 38, you are eligible to fly any aircraft in the air force inventory. So, when you go to the T one, you are only eligible to fly cargo airlift, right. And then if you go t 38, you can fly anything. So, over here, they write what they want to fly, you know, out of a pretty smaller or a smaller list. And then over here we are ranking every single aircraft that has ever existed in the Air Force that were eligible to fly. And so they call it you know, feast or famine over in the T 38. Because if you're at the top of your class, most likely, you're gonna get something that you want, like maybe in your top 10. But if you're at the bottom of your class, which is extremely competitive, it takes almost nothing to be at the bottom.
Now, you're competing against the top of this class over here, who only has to rank those cargo airlift, right. So they're all ranking, C 130, c sub teams, blah, blah, and then over here, now you're in danger of getting maybe number 30 on your list. And so it, you know, you you really are gambling when you go over to the T 38. And obviously, you know, class rank matters, but you also have no control over who's in your class, I just happened to be in a class with a guy who proficiency advanced first ever student to proficiency advanced in the T 38. Meaning he was so good at what we were doing, they were like, We're wasting resources, putting you through the syllabus, just jump ahead. I mean, this guy was insane. He flies the F 22. Now, one of my best friends, but you know, so I just happen to end up in this class where it's like, there's no way I'm going to be number one in our class, I'm fighting for 234, you know, so we're all fighting now for spots that are not number one. So we're all now at risk of not getting something we want to fly. So when I was studying my listings, I, you know, typically what you'll see students do is they'll rank the fifth Gen first, and then they'll rank fourth gen fighters. And then Then under that we put first assignment instructor pilot to stay around and teach because then if we don't get one of those things we want at the top, we kind of like reset, and we get another chance to do it. And then once you get something, you know, below that
FAPE line essentially then now you're you know, you're in an airframe that there's a chance that you could maybe switch later down the road, but it's very unlikely. So I think the the way I ranked it was F 22. And then I put at air so at AIR is a read assignment in a t 38. And you fly as the adversaries for f 22 training. And from that assignment, you have a pretty good chance of getting almost any airframe you want so it's kind of like a fake assignment, but you you know, you're already in the fighter community, so you're most likely going to get a fighter jet. And then underneath that I had that 16 So it was my number three choice and when I was going through, it's
changed now. But in fiscal year 2017, they had dropped so many f6 teens, that the pipeline was completely backed up. I was graduating class in fiscal year 2018, they completely stopped giving us 16 assignments for like the first half of the year.
And so almost none of you know, the first half of the year, no one got an F 16. And then it just so happens that the class before me, so they were, I think three or four weeks ahead, that was the first time they started dropping F 16. Again, but it was like onesie twosie is not like you're seeing now like f 16 assignments, or, you know, we're kind of like a feeder program for the F 35. And things. So when we're off 16 has been dropped now, but at the time, you know, it was lucky me and another classmate got an F 16. And we were so excited about it. And, you know, once I joined the community it, you know, I joined the F 16 community, and then my best friend, he joined the F 22 community, and watching the differences in the communities and how just how everything is the f 16 was where I supposed to be. But I didn't know that you know. So again, I just feel like there's divine intervention and kind of putting me on this path. And now obviously, I get to do the demo thing, which I would have never even I hadn't even heard of it, I would have never dreamed of it. So it all just been kind of working out.
So you didn't grow up going to air shows and you know, watching the Thunderbirds fly or anything like that. Like that was a new concept to you that there was this whole demo community out there. Oh, 100% I, I say this now when I go to air shows, I'm not an air show, kid, you know, people go, Oh, my gosh, you met my golian or rob Hollen. And they're amazing. They're icons. I'm like, I mean, they're really awesome people. But I never, I had no clue that this whole air show world existed. And really my first air show, I did go to the Randolph Air Show, I think when I was 10. That's where I got the poster of the F 22. That's a long story. My dad left me there. My mom had to come find me. But
it wasn't until my first trip with the team to Fort Lauderdale. Last year, that was really the first air show that I really attended. That's crazy. I mean, that's, that's cool, though. I want to jump into that here in a few minutes. But
alright, so you've got your F 16. You go to B School. And what's your first assignment? Where are you headed after that? Yep. So the way they handle assignments is the envy course is basically they publish the list of assignments that are available, and then they hand it over to us, the students. And we all went in a room and duked it out. Not really. We didn't we, we tried to come up with a system that you know, was fair, we all listed our top three choices.
It didn't go it didn't go as well, as we planned. Honestly, some people ended up with their number one choice. Most of us ended up with something that was in our bottom three. But basically my my best one of my best friends. Her name's Maggie, she was in the course with me. That's how we met. And her husband, also an F 16 pilot, about six months ahead of us had already PCs to Korea. And so she knew that she was going to Korea, and then one of my other really good friends in the course just volunteered to go to Korea, he's like, heck, let's, let's go be wingman in Korea, you know. And so as we were divvying out assignment, I'm like, you know, if I'm gonna go to Korea, I might as well do it. Two of my closest friends. So I volunteered to go to Korea. I also I really wanted to go to Germany at Spangdahlem. I have an uncle who lives there. And so my thought process was, you know, hey, if I volunteer to go to Korea, it kind of gives me a second chance to go to Germany, Vice coming, you know, somewhere like Shaw, where I'm going to be here for two years, four months, and then have to, you know, go through the whole assignment thing again. So I went to Korea, spent a year there as a wingman. It was a great, it was a great time, it was also in the middle of COVID or COVID kicked off while I was in Korea. So we spent a whole batch I want to say we like spent six weeks on a base lockdown. So we didn't leave the base for a month and a half. Which we all went a little stir crazy. But it was a cool experience because we just leaned on each other so much. And I mean, you just hang out with your friends constantly. So it was a really cool experience out there. Now, are you still flying sorties at that time or getting training hours in? Yeah, so it was actually cool. It was a blessing in disguise been in Korea for COVID Because Because we're on a base and we all live on base and like everybody's around each other. We pretty much kept operating as normal. We just shut the base down. So it was we all stayed on base and we flew regular sorties where I know here at Shaw, they ended up going into like, first they just shut everything down and then they went into like teams, so like team one would fly monday wednesday, Team Two
would fly Tuesday, Thursday, and they were like, they weren't briefing in rooms and all the stuff in Korea was like, You guys all live together. So if you're gonna get sick, you're gonna get sick. You know, I mean, and it wasn't that careless, obviously. But I mean, we all it was pretty much ops as normal. And then they tried to keep, you know, our squadrons a little bit more divided, but we all live in the same dorm. So it's hard to keep, you know, it's hard to have no cross crossing, and we're all using the same laundry machine. So really, and truly, we didn't have a COVID case, on the base until my gosh, don't fact check me on this. But I want to say it was close to when I left like in October and COVID kicked off in March. So we went months with no COVID cases, even when they opened up the base for travel. And, you know, they, towards the end of my assignment there I left in November, we were able to go down to Jgu, which is an airline flight down there. So we like went to the island, we went to Seoul and you know, in Korea, it's different, the culture is different. So a lot of them wear masks anyway for the air pollution. So people were not mad about having to wear masks, most people wear masks in public anyway. So it was like, no public transportation, everything else opened up really quickly. And they were able to isolate the cases fairly quickly over there. So we did, we did do some TD wise and I don't know, it was actually kind of nice to be there. It was not until I came back to the states and PCs to Shaw, that I realized how well the base coons on had handled it. I mean, we also had a little more ability to isolate, but I came to shot and they were still under COVID operations. I mean, we've been in and out of COVID operations until pretty much mid summer. So definitely got handled differently across the bases. And it doesn't matter, you know, country guidance and everything.
Alright, so
if you had to kind of look back at your experience of Korea, would you do it again? Or was that a good one time life experience? And you're done with it? Um, so I think that's a loaded question.
I would go back. Yes. I mean, I, especially as a 16. Pilot, I'm probably going to end up back there. Whether I say I want to or not,
I would i The camaraderie out there is so cool. It's definitely a very unique experience. I think that looking back, I wouldn't trade it because I got to go as a wingman, which is the best time to go. I think as you advance and become you know, closer, you know, you're in leadership positions and things I think kids on especially becomes a little bit more frustrating, because the the
time there is only one year. So there's a lot of things that get missed because everyone says we're only here for a year. And so I think if I went back, you know, now in a leadership position, you know, as a flight commander or something, I think I would have more frustrations about what I wasn't able to change. Whereas as a wingman, you're just there to fly and study, you know, and do the little things around the squadron that increase morale. And I think, you know, going back, it would be a different experience. But the camaraderie there is just unmatched. So, you know, if I have if I get sent back there, I'll be happy to go.
Very cool. Okay, so you back on stateside and get stationed at Shaw. And let's just jump into kind of how you ultimately ended up becoming the Viper demo pilot. I mean, again,
in my mind, it may be skewed. I don't know. But it could be the very coolest job in the world. So I'm just curious how you ended up here.
Yeah, um, it is what it is the coolest job in the world. I would agree with that. But yeah, so when I first started the Shah, it just again, so random, but my first day a chai Everspace. I go to get my GC refit. And I'm in the eighth shop or aircrew flight equipment shop and they're tiny my G suit and the pilot who happens to be standing across from me also getting his GC outfit is bull schmutz or Torrey Smith as he was known in the air show world. And so I just meet him my first day, and I didn't even know who he was, truthfully, I didn't really understand Viper demo. I you know, I'm here to be a fighter pilot, whatever. So I'm wearing a one a watch. And turns out Toro owns the Watch Company, again, had no clue. So he comes over he goes, Hey, you know, what's that on? Was that the new GE that watch? I'm like, oh, yeah, our squadron just ordered. These are so cool. You know, I'm showing off this watch. And he's just chuckling to himself, because you know, I'm just clueless. So that was my first time I met him. And then later, like a week or two later, he came up to me and said, Hey, would you be interested in being a safety officer on demo? I'm like, Yes. I don't know what that means. But sure. He's like, Oh, don't worry like it
really cool, just come over to the squadron. I'll give you some academics and stuff. So then at this point, I'm like, type in Google like Viper demo, like, what is my first demo, you know, obviously, all the new stuff pops up. And you know, they're an airshow team. So I go get the academics and it sounded super cool. You know, he's like, we go to these air shows like, this is our team, I met the team for the first time, he had me come train as a safety officer, I have to meet some requirements, you know, I have to, you know, do a practice, do a C, and then to do for like talking on the radio and everything. So I got those things done. And then he said, you know, cool, here's the list of air shows, just give me the top three air shows that you'd like to attend. And I'll try to, you know, divvy it out amongst all the safety officers, because we have about anywhere up to nine, typically, safety officers on the team, because we're all active duty squadron pilots, so we don't have a lot of weekends to give up. So
especially with the Shah deployment schedule, and the TDY. Schedule. So safety officers normally do anywhere from two to three air shows. So he signs me three air shows, the first one being Fort Lauderdale. So I go. And it was like early in the season, it was their second show of the season. And so I go to Fort Lauderdale, and oh my gosh, working with the team was one of the coolest things I've done in my entire life. I just loved working with them. And they were, it was so cool to see it from a different perspective, where you know, in the ops, world maintenance, and pilots get kind of separated into our own little groups of we both have such important jobs. And they obviously like have to meet in the middle. But we don't really get to see what the maintenance side is doing. And they don't get to see what we're doing. We just high five at the Jet, we go and fly and then come back and like the next day the Jets good to go. But we miss all the like stuff that's going on behind the scenes and vice versa. So being on the road with them, it was really the first time that I got to plug in to the maintenance side of things. And then not only were these guys insanely good at their job, but they also were talking to the crowd, you know, interacting with kids. And just everything they were doing, it was so cool to watch. They were just so professional. And so like approachable and humble. And none of them. No one was there for themselves. They were all there just to do the job and like, make kids smile. And it was so it was one of the coolest things I'd seen. It was humbling, honestly and inspiring. And I came back I'm like, that was one cool trip like me, I'm like, inspired by these guys on the team. It was just so cool. And so you know, I jumped and you know, I kind of just fit in with the team right away, we all just kind of got along immediately. And so I joked around with them, I'm like, How do I do more trips, you know, make me the permanent safety officer. And you know, bull and I started building our friendship. And so then it just turned out, you know, the other pilots kept getting busy. And so like, trips would open up. And so I'd raise my hand and volunteer, just because I loved working with the team so much. They were so great. And so I was given up at any weekend that I could give up, I would give up to go on the road with these guys. And then I think it was my second or third trip Victoria was talking about his replacement. And then he just said was this, would this be something you're interested in doing down the road? You know, not after me. But like later? I'm honestly Yeah, you know, this is really cool. And, you know, additionally, on top of just like hanging out with the team. It was the first time that I saw how the general public views the Air Force and how they view female pilots specifically. And it was shocking. I had never up until that point in my career had never been singled out for being a woman doing this job. People like saw me as a pilot first and respected me for what I brought to the table. And so I had never had someone like, hold up the stop sign and say what you could do this what you know, you just show up and you're seen as a pilot. And it was the first time you know, dealing with the general public. The public did not see me as a pilot. And it was so strange. It was a really strange experience. And I remember talking to the boys on the team about it because they said we've never seen a pilot get treated like this, you know, it's definitely weird for us to because normally people want to talk to the pilot and want to and it was just this they all approached me with a sense of disbelief or distrust that, you know, I was really actually one of the pilots or even if I was I wasn't I wasn't flying a fighter jet, you know? Or you know, with like, just wearing a costume with a team girlfriend like Who was I? And it was just really interesting. So when Paul asked me if I'd be interested in doing this later I said honestly Yes, just because one I love working with the team but two I
I'm shocked at how the public views, the Air Force and pilots, this is insane. I just never dealt with this before. Um, so that was the first time we had talked about it, and then getting closer to the application actually coming out, um, they sent out, you know, the base wide call, they sent out a call for the next demo pilot. And so they say, you know, hey, here are the requirements. If you're interested, you need to talk to your leadership, and then, you know, do the application. So as soon as they sent this out, I just drove over to Toros office and him. And I had built a really good friendship at this point. And so I just went into the office, I said, Look, I am considering putting my application and I didn't even know I was qualified, honestly, up until this point, I thought I was, like, I needed more time in the career field before I could apply. But turns out, I met the requirements for what they needed. So I drove over to his office, and I'm like, Look, I'm, I didn't know I was qualified to put in an application, but I am.
Am I going to be taken seriously, if I throw in my application? That's my only question. Because I, you know, I didn't want it to be that they already knew who they wanted to select as the next pilot. And but you know, anyone could apply, like, Sure, throw in your applications, but like, we're already leaning towards this person. And I'm like, you know, if I put in this application, I'm going to, you know, put a lot of time and effort into it. So I just want to know, if I'm going to be taken seriously as a candidate, or if you know, it's already kind of predetermined. And so, you know, he heard me out, he asked him questions, you know, we had talked at length at this point about kind of the challenges that were going to come for me specifically, it was a big mental decision, but also a pretty big emotional decision as well, because I knew I was going to be opening up now my personal life to kind of get scrutinized. And it just, you know, it takes you out, you're now no longer a fighter pilot. Now you're in the public eye, and people are going to, you know, want to scrutinize your personal life. And that's something that you don't normally deal with. So we had talked at length about that. And he said, You know, I honestly, he goes, I honestly don't know, but I will go find out for you, if putting in an application would be a waste of time. I was like, Okay, I would appreciate that. And he texted me later that day, he's like, honestly, they have no clue who there's like put in your application, I truly think that they are looking for the next pilot. And then so I went to talk to my squadron commander, who was very supportive of me putting an application we also talked about my squadron was supposed to deploy. So we talked at length about me, you know, I might miss the deployment altogether, I might only get to do half a deployment, you know, kind of how I felt about that. So, ultimately, I decided to put in my application, and then I did end up getting an interview. So you know, it's a selection process. You go through interviews, and yeah, they, I found out I got, I was going to be taken over the team. So it was, it was an awesome, it was awesome to find it out. It definitely felt surreal, really, until I got the certification completed. Because, you know, I always tell everyone in the Air Force, don't ever get emotionally attached to an idea. Because don't ever get emotionally attached to an assignment or something, because the air force might change their mind on where they need you. And they selected me as the next demo pilot, but they could have decided that they needed me downrange. And that's it, you know, so I was very careful about getting emotionally invested in
taking over the team until it became pretty much real, you know, right down the line. So I got selected in July of 2021. And I got certified in March of 2022. So it was kind of a long along the upgrade process before I actually, you know, took over the team.
Yeah, well, that's a fascinating story. So I do want to jump into this for a minute, because you brought up this idea that, you know, being part of their show community, it was the first time you realize kind of how the general public felt about essentially female aviators and pilots. You know,
I've done a lot of research on different aspects of females in military aviation. And obviously, I mean, I'm not sure what year you were born, but 93 was was the year women could actually fly in combat. And so, you know, it's not been that long, but at the same time, it's been long enough. And there's been plenty of women that come through and do amazing things and serve our country in amazing ways. And I think it's really fascinating that the general public still has it, at least a percentage of it has this misconception of the fact that, you know, doesn't matter who's in the seat, it's, it's how they can get the job done. So yeah.
I'm just curious to kind of look at the parallel between how the Air Force handles that and how the difference between how the general public handles that like, is that an issue in the Air Force still, or is it more
equalize playing
Bill there. Yeah, so I love talking about this actually. And
the first thing I want to say is that it's definitely different from the Air Force and the inside looking out than the outside looking in. And one of the reasons I'm so, you know, I didn't understand the importance. Up until I joined demo, I was just a pilot that went to work and did my job. And even as the demo pilot, I wake up and go to work and do my job. And truthfully, it's been a learning experience for me, because I feel like I was a little bit ignorant on the fact that, you know, there is this misconception out there about woman pilots, and I always kind of scuffed it, like I almost I almost in a way, felt like I was bigger than this issue, because I never saw it as an issue. It's never been treated as an issue. So I kind of was annoyed, almost are just, you know, not open to the idea that this existed, because I would have family friends, you know, oh, you know, what's it like being a woman? I'm like, why would you ask me that? What are you taught? You know? Like, why is this even a thing, it's never been a thing for me. But now stepping into this role, I am realizing just how important it is to have that representation, because it is such a huge misconception from the general public. And so, you know, I've definitely changed my views on it, I've definitely changed my attitude about it, because I did have a different attitude before I took over. And now I think it's just important, like, the message that I want to send is, it's just time to get over it. I understand it's, you know, we can celebrate where women have come in, like what they've accomplished, because yes, there were barriers in the past, that is over 30, or almost 30 years old at this point. So let's move on. And let's stop having this conversation about it. Because the more we have this conversation, the more we're taking away the actual credentials of the women who are in these roles. Because if you know, I just had an interview the other day, and they said, What extra hurdles did you have to jump as a woman, I said, I jumped all the same hurt. We're all on the we're on the same track field. And all the hurdles are the same. They didn't lower the bar for me to jump over the hurdle. They didn't raise it either. So they literally the standards, the standard, and that's how the Air Force looks at it, the Air Force goes, either meet it or you don't. And especially from the inside looking out, I went to pilot training with some. I remember one guy in particular, his dad was a fighter pilot, he had been dreaming of being a fighter pilot, since he was two years old. This was all this kid had wanted to do his entire life. And he got the pilot training. And the Air Force told him he was not qualified to fly fighter. And I watched his hopes and dreams get crushed. And that was a that was a guy. Did he have to do that? No, he just he didn't meet the standard. And I've also seen women not meet the standard. I mean, the standard is the standard. So you know, sometimes they say, Oh, well, you don't see as many girl fighter pilots. Well, some of them just aren't meeting the standard. And they're this percentage of how like, you know, if we have this many women start and we have, okay, we'll say this many women start and then this many men start, it's the same percentage of them that aren't meeting the standard, it just looks different, because we have less woman to start with. Right? So. But the the percentage of people who are meeting the standard, there are tons of men out there who don't meet the standard. Same with women. But then you also have men and women who are meeting the standard. You also have men and women who are exceeding the standard, you know, and I think that as women, especially, you know, there's more of us out here than you think. And I say this to everybody, they go, Oh, you never see female pilots. I'm like, yo aren't looking hard enough. They are. There's a lot more than you would would think. But, you know, I know that everyone, at least all the pilots that I fly fly with, and the F 16 community, we all hold ourselves to a high standard. And that's not because we're women. Everybody I work with in those squadrons holds themselves to a high standard. We all nitpick ourselves, we're all perfectionist, we all want to excel, we all want to do well. And so, you know, and I think that, you know, even for me, I've never said, I want to do well, because I'm worried that if I don't, someone's gonna call me out for being a woman. No, I want to do well, because if I don't, I might be screwing up the fight for my wingman over there, you know? And so I think from the inside looking out, it's just we're holding ourselves to a high standard because that's what's required. And so it's it's definitely a misconception and I really want to change that narrative. And additionally, I want the conversation about women to go away and I know that's probably never going to happen. But I like to say the more we glamorize, women pilots, the less we're in
normalizing it. So the more we, you know, the more we go, Oh, you're this is amazing. You're a woman or and every time you publish an article that says, female pilot, you are now discrediting me as a pilot, because you're deciding to mention my gender, nobody else is forcing you to mention my gender you're deciding to. And now you're glamorizing the fact, you're glamorizing that title, and you're not normalizing it. And it's time to just stop doing that. Because the more that we do that from the inside out, the more we're building that misconception from the public. So you mentioned this idea that,
you know, the more we glamorize, the fact that there's females here, there's males here, there's a difference like that, the more difficult it makes it, it's harder to normalize. How do you contrast with the idea of the fact that
most people's perception of anything military aviation, wise, is what they see in the movies or what they see, you know, from the very small percentage of public perception? Obviously, the work you're doing with the air show opens the eyes of people interested in aviation, but then everybody else relies on you know, and luckily, now we have Phoenix to look at and say it's normal to have a female pilot and Top Gun Maverick, you know, so, yeah. But But how do you contrast the idea of let's not glamorize it, but let's make sure people are aware that it is a more normalized thing? Yeah, I think, you know, the previous F 35. Public Affairs Officer and I talked about this a lot, because we talked about, you know, how can we get the information out there, and some of it truly, you know, social media now to is changing how everything works and how information gets disseminated, which is really, really cool. And I think that, you know, it obviously depends on the algorithms and all that stuff. But because I'm a woman pilot, when I get on Instagram, I see other girls flying planes, and they're not necessarily fighter pilots, or, you know, Air Force pilots, but they're just pilots out there. And, you know, like I said, I started flying at 16. And some of these, these girls are younger, or like, you know, majoring in aviation. And that's really cool. Now that we have access to that through social media, I think that having that all women airshow it was you know, I think it was one of those things that it was I was reluctant to participate in it because of my whole view on like, let's not glamorize this, let's normalize it. But at the same time, having something you know, we have so many women pilots, that were even able to do an all woman Air Show, and let's do this thing. Hopefully only one time to get the information out there, like, hey, you know, or how impactful is it when people show up to an airshow, and all the performers just happen to be female, just happen to be women who are doing again, we're all just going to work and doing our jobs. No one's sitting there waiting, looking for extra accolades. Because we all we all ran the same obstacle course, you know, to get where we are today in comparison, you know, to our coworkers. So I think it's just important to get that information out. And, you know, yeah, like, like I said, me doing this job is one of those things where I've changed my attitude about it, because now it's like, hey, representation is important. And now you're seeing, you know, a woman pilot do this job. And so hopefully now, next year, there's less questions about it, you know, and we have veio. She's the F 35 demo pilot. And I know, the Blue Angels just hired their first woman pilot to be on their team. And so, you know, as we're slowly doing this, and, you know, Thunderbirds, we've had women pilots on the Thunderbirds, for several years now. And there's one right now there was one last couple of seasons. So the more we see that, and the less the more you see it, the less you have to talk about it, right? Because now you're just seeing it happen. And yeah, we're still going to be the minority. It's just how it works. And we, you know, that's a whole other conversation on why I think there's minorities, when it comes to women pilots, there are definitely things that we could do that would incentivize this lifestyle, because it is a tough lifestyle to be a part of, especially as a woman, when you look at the timeline for career and everything, it is tough. But the more we can take those, you know, things out of it.
And just, you know, people are gonna see it and hopefully, you know, one of the ways you can recruit or whatever is just be the representation. And that's kind of what this role allows me to do.
I love it. And you mentioned Thunderbirds having female pilots last several years. I spoke with Michelle Karen mace a couple of years ago. And you know, her story is so amazing. And one of the things that I think is really cool about it is it's sort of that that counterintuitive idea that she went on the Kelly Clarkson show, which in a sense glamorizes her as a female Thunderbird pilot
it. Yeah, the side of that is a little five year old girl who said, I want to grow up and be like mace because she had never had the opportunity to see somebody like that. And yes, absolutely, the moment happened where she can now realize her dream can actually be a reality. And, you know, I think those kinds of stories to me like me as a storyteller, I want to tell all those stories, you know, and it's like this hard dichotomy of like, how do you want to tell all those stories, but to your point, not over glamorize it and like draw a difference, but say, the standard is here? Doesn't matter what color, what gender, what ethnicity, what country you're from, if you don't meet that standard, this isn't the job for you, essentially, 100%. And I think that's what's cool about, you know, when you go out and fly a demo, my assumption is it looks the exact same, maybe a little better than when Toro did it, you know. So, but but the point is, it doesn't matter who's the one on the stick, it matters, that you have the qualifications to meet the standard 100%. And I think, you know, something else I've talked about before is,
we got to stop, you know, as parents or as adults raising the next generation, we've got to stop instilling the mindset into young girls that there are these artificial barriers, you know, people always talk about glass ceilings and all this stuff. And it's, I've heard it several times, where a mom will come up with her daughter and go, see, I told you girls can do anything, you go tell those boys, I'm like, You are unintentionally, setting your daughter up with the mindset to look at gender first. And that's something that I'm very grateful to my parents for. Because, like you said, you know, that little girl saw mace on the Kelly Clarkson show. And now, now she knows that she can be a pilot. That's huge. But I can say from my story, I never saw a woman pilot that I wanted to emulate. I never said, Oh, I didn't know I could do this until I saw someone doing it. I know that some people's experience. But I was raised with the mindset, you know, my parents instilled in me young of, if you can do it, you can do it. You know, if the standards of standard meet it. And I played, I learned all these lessons. I played boys soccer, since I was almost a sophomore in high school, and I was the only girl on the team. And my parents never once were, you know, yeah, we chuckle about it when parents like the other girl on their team. And you know, they found it funny because they're like, well just wait till you see or play whatever. And so they never gave me the mindset of I'm going to be held back because of my gender, or I couldn't do something because of my gender. That was just, hey, if you're if you want to be doing something, go be the best that you can be and meet the standard, and you'll be fine. And so I really want to encourage, you know, people who are raising children, or maybe just an aunt or uncle or, or whoever, as adults, we should carry that responsibility on us to make sure that we're letting people know that exactly what you said, the race, the gender, the age, it doesn't matter. This standard is the standard. And we should never, we should never hope the standard changes, we should hope that standard stays steadfast. Now, also realizing that anyone's able to meet the standard. And when like I told you, I've had challenges in this career everybody has, but never once did I take those challenges and go, I'm having these challenges because I'm a woman. No, I was having those challenges, because I wasn't meeting the standard in the way I needed to be. So I never assumed that my obstacles were because of my gender. And I think that especially at air shows, like you said, people, half the people don't even know who's flying the jet. I have a helmet on they can't see who I am. They don't hear me talking. But it should be a symbol to anybody out there. Not just not just little girls, to little boys to young adults, whoever that hey, that helmet goes on your face. Nobody cares who you are, they care about what you can do. So I think that it's important to start, you know, don't tell your little girl go tell that boy to get lost. Because you know, girls can do it too. Or girls can do anything boys can do when you're telling them that you're literally putting this idea in their head, that they're having to do something different because of their gender. Rather than saying, Hey, you want to run the fastest mile go run the fastest mile. If you're not running the fastest mile, you're not running the fastest mile train harder. You know what I'm saying?
I love it. That's, that's cool. You're You're so inspirational, the way your mindset works, I think I wish more people were like that
will tell you they're not you know, and that's the problem. That's the, I think you've said it before, that's the ignorance that you're fighting. Every time you show up, I'm sure at an airshow and somebody walks by and says well, she can't be the pilot, you know, that's just
that that unfortunately exists and
hopefully one day that doesn't exist anymore. But until then, you know, hopefully we keep kind of figuring out how to balance that story that that is
isn't necessarily glamorizing, but it's just portraying the fact that there's a standard to meet it doesn't matter who you are, but meet it, do the job and then go on your merry way.
That being said, and I don't know if you're going to tell me the answer to this, but I got to ask, how'd you get all sign rebel? You're right, I'm not going to tell you the answer to that. This is a question I get a lot. And I do like to emphasize why we don't tell our callsign stories.
The reason we don't share them is because it's first a long standing tradition, there's a whole tradition that goes along with getting a callsign. And you really get named by your community, they put a ton of time and thought into naming you, and you spend years I mean, I started pilot training in 2017. And I didn't get my first real callsign until 2020. So I spent years of training to earn that callsign. And you don't even get your first callsign until you are a mission ready wingman. So you spend years getting there. And so, you know, it's near and dear to my heart, where I'm not just going to tell anybody about my callsign because it's, you know, near and dear to my heart, and I will carry it through my career, and it takes you so long to earn it. And then additionally, normally, the story that goes into your callsign is a 30 minute long story, you know, they try to get it, you know, when we have to tell it at Squadron roll calls, they try to make it 10 minutes or less. But you know, so the tradition is if you want to hear a fighter pilots, callsign, you have to buy them a drink, and you know, sit down and actually listen to the full story. So that's the tradition, I would never disrespect the tradition. And, you know, we typically don't just share our callsign stories.
Fair enough, I'll accept that answer.
All right. Couple of quick questions. So one is, you know, you became the central commander of the Viper demo team. And with that responsibility,
you know, you lead this team of people. So was it a natural transition for you to move into this sort of leadership role? And, and to the kind of counterpart of that is, you know, you mentioned the team before that you fell in love with the team when you were the safety officer. But But how do you like this role of how close the team interaction is, I was lucky, because I did do so many trips with the team early on, that I you know, the way my leadership style is definitely more relationship driven. So I have always, you know, the way I respond to leadership is if I feel like, we have a relationship and like, you care about me, and you're gonna fight for me, there's almost no, there's almost nothing I wouldn't do. Right. So that's how I view it as well. And it's not even like, I'm choosing that leadership style, it just kind of comes naturally to me, I genuinely, like genuinely super care about the guys on our team. And I love them, I love their families, you know, so there's a lot of times, you know, in this role that I'm asking them to give up, you know, we had a crew chief last night, he couldn't go trick or treating with his kids, because he had to fly out to go fix a jet that we had to leave in Mississippi. And, you know, it didn't those moments where if they distrust my intentions, or don't feel like I actually care, you know, then the, they might, you know, bite back a little bit when it comes to asking these big things of them. Because that's a big ask of, hey, leave your family go do this thing. So that part all you know, it came more naturally than I anticipated, just because I'd already spent so much time building relationships with everyone on the team. And I think you know, it's going to change next year, we're losing half our team and hiring a new half of the team. So I'm sure I'm going to have to go through a adjustment period and some growing pains when it comes to, you know, figuring out what works best for those new team members when they come in. But, you know, we also talked even on the team, we have such a close relationship. Now we did talk about how at the beginning, we were all all of us, me on my side them on their side of how I was going to transition from being more of a bro to being like the actual leader. And there were definitely some things that happen that, you know, they they tested me a little bit they did, they tested me as a leader, kind of just to see where the line was. And it was, you know, at least for me on my side of things, if if I don't feel like I'm in the wrong, I'm not afraid to be like the bad guy. So if I, you know, if you're crossing the line, and I feel like I'm in the right, I'm not afraid to be like, Hey, take a step back. And I'm not worried about you know if that's going to degrade our relationship or you know, now we you don't feel like you want to come talk to me or something, then you're choosing to let that affect our relationship because you're not willing to take that feedback I'm giving you and then you know what, maybe we'll talk about it later and move on.
From it, or maybe we're strained for a little bit, and you're just gonna have to now we're back in the mode where leader, you know, is telling you to do this thing, and you have to do it. So that definitely happened a couple of times this year, but I think we're all stronger for it, I think, you know, our relationship has improved because of it. And the way our team works, has improved because of it, because you know, it, it took them a little bit to learn me and took me a little bit to learn them. But I would say, we have reached a really good point, and especially, you know, nearing the end of the season, it's just, there's almost no hiccups. It's almost scary that we all function so well together. But it's really it's it's effort on everybody's part to make that happen.
That's awesome. And then it goes for so many types of organizations, right? As people kind of move up, there's that dichotomy of like, you know, what we used to be sort of on the same playing field, and now I'm your boss, or I'm, you know, you have to respect me in a different way. And if there was no trust there before, then it's really hard to earn and gain that trust to allow you to be the leader. So that's awesome here. Okay.
flying a jet.
F 16. To be exact is no walk in the park. So what do you do to kind of de stress after the fact but also, what do you do to prepare your body physically your mind mentally, to go fly at nine G's on a regular basis? Yeah, so obviously, you know, being in athletic shape is important. It's definitely changed also, since I've joined demo, because now I no longer can be sore when I'm going to go fly. Like if I've done a intense leg day, that's going to decrease my ability to sustain G's because I've actually had it before where I've gotten a hamstring cramp and the jet. And I mean, you can't recover you're, you're down for the count, you know. And so I've definitely changed before I joined demo, I lifted five times a week, I didn't really care, you know, oh, yeah, maybe it was more uncomfortable getting in and out of the jet. But I, it was fine. And now I've definitely changed that this year, because I have to be, you know, physically ready in to go on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, when I'm flying these demos. So I've had to change up my schedule a little bit, I still do enjoy lifting weights. It's one of my hobbies. I kind of like, after I was done playing soccer in college, it was lifting weights was like the first thing that I did for myself.
Not as an athlete, like it was the first time I went in, like worked out with no agenda. So that was like kind of a stress relieving thing for me, you know, it was like really cool, I super enjoy it. And so that's kind of how I prepare my body for the de stress, you know, after flying. Definitely the demo brings different challenges. I've had the blood Pauline for the high D has really started to affect my right arm. And I think it's due to my sitting height, I have a short torso. So I sit full up in the jet, which means the controls are further away from me. So my arm is more extended than some other pilots when they fly. And so just the high G maneuvers and everything it really takes it it really has been straining or stressing my like joint, my elbow and my joint here. And my arm will be so swollen by the time I'm done flying the the demonstration is now you know sometimes I joke around with the team I'm like look at all swollen like feel hospital. And this is. So really coming, you know getting into a full, I have like pretty much a full recovery process. Now after I'm done flying, we have a NormaTec machine that I'll put my arm in, it helps drain that fluid out. And that makes like a huge difference. ICIT I use heating pads. And it's about you know, I'm developing like some tendinitis, but my brother's a nurse he there's like this topical cream that you can put on, it's kind of like a pain relief. So I just I've been being more diligent about that, because at the beginning of the season, I wasn't I was just kind of sending it like, Oh, it'll be fine. And then I realized I was in pain, and you know, new to me, I'm learning on the job. Because I have different, you know, physiological challenges, then bolded. So just kind of learning on the job learning how to take care of myself that way. And then, you know, on the road, my distress is truly our team. So we all just enjoy hanging out together so much. And we'll take, we always take one night out of the airshow weekend to just spend as a team. So that's really where the de stress comes in for us. Because, you know, during the actual air show that's happening. We have social events, we have media, we have all these different things that we have to do and requirements. So my distress time truly comes when I'm hanging just with the team and it's just different than I've ever experienced before because no even in a squadron if you're a TTY or on an assignment, your destress guns, you know, maybe one morning you wake up and you just go get coffee by yourself and you're like, a breath of fresh air. On this team. If I'm getting coffee by myself. I'm annoyed
Like, where are you guys? You know, so it has changed, they really have just become part of my, like, introvert bubble, I guess you could say they're like part of it. So that's really special and neat and definitely keeps the stress to a minimum. That's cool. Well, I mean, obviously, flying a jet the way you do try to break it every single day can only take I mean, the way you perform is as high level as any professional athlete. I mean doing post flight, you know, arm stuff, and I can only assume it's just like what a you know, football player does after a game, you know, you go in and ice down and do all those things. And obviously, it's dangerous inside and outside. Anybody that might be watching a video probably notices a small little mark on your forehead so big.
We call him we call them Viper bites. This is the worst one I've had in a while. But yeah. Okay. I love to ask these rapid fire questions. It's always the fun stuff. Starting off Netflix or the news. Do you have time for either? Oh, Netflix, no question.
All right, the best or latest book you've ever read?
Oh, the latest book I've read. Oh my gosh, I can't think of the name. Okay, we'll say best book. A higher call. It's about a pilot, a US Air Force pilot that got saved by a German fighter pilot. Oh, really? Cool. Read it. It's so good. No, it's a book. A higher call. It is an incredible. I mean, just an incredible story. You will cry.
Most likely.
Awesome. I'm gonna take it out most important part of your daily routine.
Ah, probably my workouts.
That makes sense. best piece of advice you've either given or received.
I think the best is like I said, it came from my parents about just, you know, meeting the standard. It's the advice they gave me. And it's the advice I give everyone. So I say it a lot. It must be the best advice I've I've ever received.
If you had to sum that up in a one, one sentence, how would you say that? And one set.
If you want to, if you want to play be the best player.
I love it.
Alright, now if you could write a book, what would the title be?
Oh, um
this is a joke, but send help.
I won't ask questions.
This is a fun one. What's the best thing you've bought in the last year for under $100?
Well, it's probably a makeup item, but let me think of something cooler.
Mmm hmm.
Oh, I got it. Um,
had one of those handheld stirs that you can use for like coffee. Like It's electric. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I use it every single day, multiple times a day. It's amazing.
Love it. Love it. Alright, so I've heard your sort of pre flight rituals to sit and listen to music. What are you listening to? Who's your favorite artists?
I Alex will kill me if I answered this question. Um, I'll tell you. It's a playlist. You can look it up on Spotify. It's called it's a hip hop playlist. And me and whoever's watching me we jam out in the car. So hip hop on Spotify is what I listen to. Awesome. Love it.
Favorite food or restaurant? What do you eat?
I don't eat it often. But my favorite food is mac and cheese. Any you know like a fancy mac and cheese like buffalo mac and cheese like truffle kills me every time. If I see Mac G's on a menu. It's like a physical like a physical mental process for me to not order it.
I love it. All right. What's what's next for you both in the Airforce and beyond if you thought about your your career outside the Air Force. Um, so honestly, you know, my first exit ramp out of the Air Force is not until 2028. So I have a lot of time to decide what I want to be when I grew up. And truthfully you know, I once I'm done with demo, I'm hopefully going to go back to the caf or the combat Air Force as a fighter pilot. So wherever the Air Force needs me to go, that's where I'm gonna go. Well, Kevin feeler.
This has been awesome. I really appreciate the time. I really appreciate the conversation. If people want to check out the Viper demo what you guys are up to where can they go? How can they see you? Yep,
so they can go our Instagram is at Viper demo team. And that's how you can find us as face on Facebook as well. And then my Instagram is Rebel Fiedler 16. I'm always posting, you know, flight videos and stuff like that for our team page. And then I think you can also just Google Viper demo team, it'll take you to our shot Air Force Base, webpage. And that's where you can find profiles for all the different team members. And then information about our schedule, which should be coming out mid December is when they're going to announce our next year schedule. So that's how people can figure out where they're going to see us on the road next year.
Awesome. And I follow you guys on Instagram, and it's some really cool stuff. So definitely encourage people to check that out. Well, to you and to everyone on your team. I just want to say thank you for your service. We appreciate everything you guys do every day. And thanks for showing people what you guys can do every day and how the Viper keeps us all safe and free. Yeah, well, I appreciate it. It was great talking to you and hopefully, hopefully I said something that someone can learn from.
So that wraps it up for this episode. And I want to give a huge thanks to rebel and her right hand woman Alex for making this interview happen right after a long airshow weekend. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.

by derek